Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 22: Electronic Edition

Pages 1 - 207 of 207


 1IN THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE
1996 I. No. 113
QUEEN'S BENCH DIVISION
 2Royal Courts of Justice
 3Strand, London
 4 Thursday, 17th February 2000
 5
 6Before:
 7MR JUSTICE GRAY
 8
 9B E T W E E N: DAVID JOHN CAWDELL IRVING
10Claimant -and-
11(1) PENGUIN BOOKS LIMITED
12(2) DEBORAH E. LIPSTADT
13Defendants
14The Claimant appeared in person
15MR RICHARD RAMPTON Q.C. (instructed by Messrs Davenport Lyons and Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of the First and
16Second Defendants
17MISS HEATHER ROGERS (instructed by Davenport Lyons) appeared on behalf of the First Defendant Penguin Books Limited
18MR ANTHONY JULIUS (of Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of
19the Second Defendant Deborah Lipstadt
20
21(Transcribed from the stenographic notes of Harry Counsell
&Company, Clifford's Inn, Fetter Lane, London EC4
22Telephone: 020-7242-9346)
23(This transcript is not to be reproduced without the written permission of Harry Counsell &Company)
24
25 PROCEEDINGS - DAY TWENTY-TWO
26

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 1 <Day 22.
 2(10.35 a.m.) Thursday, 17th February 2000.
 3 < Professor Evans, recalled.
 4< Cross-Examined by Mr Irving, continued.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, Mr Irving?
 6 MR IRVING:     May it please the court. My apologies for this
 7late start.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is quite all right.
 9 MR IRVING:     My Lord, today we will certainly advance to the end
10of 1942 and I will certainly finish on Monday.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Good.
12 MR IRVING:     So that is the target that I have set. Professor
13Evans, good morning.
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Good morning.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you please go to page 306 of your report? If we
16could just before that go briefly to page 302 on paragraph
174? It is a minor point but we will take in our stride.
18You criticise on line 4 of paragraph 4 that "Irving all
19too often provides inaccurate references or no source
20references at all".
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Now, on the facing page on the bottom you have quoted
23three documents from the Public Records Office, Foreign
24Office, archives?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did you find those yourself or were they from my discovery

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 1or from my ----
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     These were found by one of my researchers in the Public
 3Record Office.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     In the Public Record Office.
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Where there are documents that I found in your discovery,
 6I have said so.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     So they made no use of the identical documents in my
 8discovery provided to your solicitors then or of the
 9reference numbers that I gave in the footnotes of my
10books?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, we went straight to the Public Record Office.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     How did they know which of these tens of thousands of
13files to look in if it was not from the source references
14I gave in the book?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That was, I presume, how we knew.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     We now advance to page 306. You, of course, have strong
17criticism ----
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     If I may just add to that, that I think these concern
19British Ambassadorial reports, that is right, and I note
20at the top of page 301 that you footnote those reports.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, thank you. In other words, I give sufficient
22references for you and your research to find documents
23like that?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     In some instances, yes, in some instances you do not.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, well, we will come to those instances later on. I do
26not think it is enormously important, but one or two I am

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 1going to pick off like a sniper. You have general
 2criticism of a lady called Ingrid Weckert. You consider
 3that her work is anti-semitic and that she is a neo-Nazi,
 4and these are reasons why one should not use her, is that
 5right?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     She is not a serious historian. Her work is anti-semitic
 7propaganda.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     I do not want to labour the point, but we had a discussion
 9several days ago, you may remember, in which I asked you
10do revisionists ever turn up anything useful? Do they
11ever do any useful research or would you totally ignore
12the body of evidence the revisionists provide?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I would ignore it unless ----
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Ignore it?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- I mean, unless you count yourself as a revisionist.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     This was going to be my -- well anticipated. Do you
17consider me to be a revisionist whom you would ignore the
18work I do?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is what you call yourself. I mean, I have said
20repeatedly that you have turned up in the course of your
21career a number of documents of varying value, but some
22are valuable.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We are slightly missing the point on Ingrid
24Weckert, are we not? I think the point that Professor
25Evans makes (and you may want to deal with this) is that
26she is, as he describes her, not a serious historian but

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 1an anti-semitic propagandist and you cite her seven times
 2in, is it Goebbels -- yes, Goebbels.
 3 MR IRVING:     My Lord everyone is anticipating very well what
 4I am about to ask this morning.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Except me.
 6 MR IRVING:     I was going to get on to this. At the beginning of
 7paragraph 6 on page 306, you tend to talk a great deal
 8about the book by Ingrid Weckert?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Now, why do you do this? Is there any evidence at all
11that I have had the book or I that I have used the book or
12that I have relied on the book?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, there is.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     What is this book then?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     There is a -- in a number of my footnotes ----
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you referring to footnote 162?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     154 and 160.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     And ----
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is that a book?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     And 158 and 162, and I understand that these are articles
22which were put together then to make a book.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     You reference the actual book on footnote 159, is that
24right?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right, yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is there any evidence whatsoever that I have had that book

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 1or used that book or relied on that book in any degree?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, because in footnote -- I mean, you are really
 3splitting hairs here, Mr Irving ----
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     No, I am talking about your paragraph No. 6.
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     If you will allow me to answer the question, please? It
 6is only two minutes into this and you are already
 7interrupting me, Mr Irving. As I have said, you have in
 8your discovery, in the documents you made available to the
 9Defence, some articles by Ingrid Weckert with pencil
10margin lines, presumably by yourself. These articles went
11together to form a book, though that, I mean, the articles
12in the book are, essentially, the same thing.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     I think it would be useful if we, therefore, have a look
14at this article that I am supposed to have done with the
15alleged pencil lines on it. It is in bundle H1 (vi). Do
16you have that?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not have that here.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Before you do, Mr Irving, can I be clear why
19we are doing this? Is it to show that she is not an
20anti-Semitic propagandist?
21 MR IRVING:     No, my Lord, it is because I have repeatedly been
22accused in this report of relying on an inaccurate book
23and of drawing pencil marks in an article to indicate that
24I have relied on the article. First of all, we are
25dealing with the book. I have asked him to say, is there
26any evidence at all that I have even had the book in my

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 1possession and, of course, there is not. So everything he
 2says about the book is totally irrelevant.
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am sorry, Mr Irving. I have already explained twice why
 4it is not irrelevant.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     He says, Mr Irving -- he may be wrong, but
 6what he says is that the articles you do quote or cite are
 7really regurgitated in the book. Is that what you are
 8saying, Professor Evans? I do not know whether it is
 9right or wrong.
10 MR IRVING:     Can I draw your attention ----
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, not simply regurgitated.
12 MR IRVING:     Can I draw your Lordship's attention to footnote
13160 which is one typical example where the witness says:
14"The testimony of Naumann, discussed later in this
15Report, is taken over by Irving from Weckert, but only
16mentioned in her book".
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Not in the two articles by her which he has included in
18his discovery.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you ----
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     But this is also, Mr Irving, I mean, in your account of
21the Reichskristallnacht, you have concealed where you get
22your material from. You cite simply "the author Ingrid
23Weckert" or "Ingrid Wecker" without giving a precise
24reference to where your material comes from. If one looks
25at some of the more extraordinary assertions you make in
26your account of the Reichskristallnacht, they occur in

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 1Ingrid Weckert's work and it is a fair inference that you
 2have derived from her.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     But you have stated specifically ----
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am not saying that you take over all of her
 5extraordinary ideas, but you take over some.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     To cut the matter short, can we accept, can we agree that
 7you now accept that I have not used her book?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, you cannot.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     He has just said the opposite.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have already explained three times that the articles are
11substantially the same as the book.
12 MR IRVING:     But you criticise me for what is in her book and
13I have asked you to agree that I have never had her book?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Let us have a look at some ----
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     This should be a matter briefly disposed of.
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- let us have a look at some of the ideas. I mean, this
17is all extremely vague at the moment.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     First of all, can you point to the pencil lines on the
19article to which you refer?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Right, well, can you refer me to the page, please?
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is page 646 of bundle H1 (vi).
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     600 and?
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     46. That is where it begins I believe. H.
24 MR RAMPTON:     It may be your Lordship will find it in L2.
25 MR IRVING:     H1 (vi) is the copy that I have used.
26 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. That may be, but what is it called?

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This is Kristallnacht 1938, the great anti-German
 2spectacle, and this may be taken directly from the journal
 3and not ----
 4 MR RAMPTON:     I do not know. Your Lordship will find it in L2
 5at tab 6.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you very much.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     Without the pencil marks, I think.
 8 MR IRVING:     Without pencil marks?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Without pencil marks.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     What is the point of putting in a footnote 162, see the
11pencil lines, if we cannot see the pencil lines?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You deny that there are pencil lines, Mr Irving.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am asking you to show them to us.
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Could I have the original copy, then, please?
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     I have just given you the reference. It is H1(vi) 646.
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, the original.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     So we have now established that I did not use the book?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, Mr Irving.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We have not established that.
20 MR IRVING:     I am not getting a clear answer from the witness,
21my Lord.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not sure what it is I am looking at in
23L2. Is this extract from the book or one of the articles?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is an article.
25 MR IRVING:     It is not the reference I gave. The reference
26I gave was H1 (vi) 646, which is the way the documents

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 1were given to me?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is the same.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, I am bound to say I do not really
 4find this terribly helpful. The nub of the criticism,
 5I will say it again, is that you have used and cited as a
 6source for events succeeding Kristallnacht a lady who is
 7alleged by this witness to be worthless as a historian and
 8an anti-Semite. You have various answers to that. Either
 9you can say I think she is a serious historian and you can
10put to the witness why, or you can say that the material
11you cited has no signs of any anti-Semitism, but really
12burrowing through the documents to see whether there are
13pencil sidenotes on an article seems to me to be a waste
14of time.
15 MR RAMPTON:     I have the original discovery copy and it has lots
16of pencil marks on it, or what appear to be copies of
17pencil marks, to be exact.
18 MR IRVING:     Can I take you to the little bundle of documents?
19We will jump several stages in this case, my Lord.
20Towards the end of the little bundle of documents probably
21on the second page ----
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Sorry, you will have to tell me which little bundle, Mr
23Irving. I have plenty here.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     The one I gave you this morning.
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Let me try and find it. Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     About two pages from the end, is that a letter from me to

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 1somebody called Mrs Weckert dated June 3rd 1979?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sorry. I wonder if I am looking at the
 4wrong thing?
 5 MR IRVING:     It is two pages from the end of that little bundle,
 6my Lord.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think it has found its way here. It
 8does not appear in my clip, at any rate not two pages from
 9the end?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This is the one with 693 in the top right hand corner.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does the 693 indicate that that letter was in my
12discovery?
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. I am sure it does.
14 MR IRVING:     Am I replying in that letter to a sehr ausfuhrliche
15Darstellung which this lady has sent to me?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am thanking her for a very ----
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Extensive.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Extensive description.
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you accept that this was a description of the events
22of the Kristallnacht as she has researched it up to that
23point?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I accept that that is her tendentious account of the
25Reichskristallnacht.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Very well. Will you look in the second paragraph and see

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 1that I make criticisms already of her account and suggest
 2that I am not going to go along with everything that she
 3writes? You cannot just dismiss the report of the SA
 4Group -- do I write that?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You write that, yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     This will certainly interest you most of all? I also
 7refer to the diary of von Hassell, the diary of Grosfort
 8and other contemporary sources?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, Mr Irving. As I have already said, I do not say that
10you take over all her ideas. You do not, for example,
11depict, as she does, the pogrom of the Reichskristallnacht
12as devised and put forward by Zionists in order to cast
13opprobrium on the Nazi regime and cause it to fall. Even
14you have some scruples, Mr Irving.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is possible that an amateur historian like Ingrid Weckert
16will succeed by her obsessive diligence in turning up
17items, or documents, or conversations with people that she
18conducted, that would be use to the general body of
19historical opinion?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I would not regard her as an amateur historian, Mr Irving.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     An amateur writer, an amateur chronicler?
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Answer the thrust of the question, Professor
23Evans.
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     There is always a possibility, yes, of course, that anyone
25can do that.
26 MR IRVING:     Is this the kind of correspondence you would expect

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 1to see between one writer and another where one writer is
 2saying, "I found this kind of thing", and the other writer
 3writes back and says, "well, I think you got this right
 4but you got that wrong, here are some documents that
 5I have got" -- does this go on?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have not said that you take over all her ideas, or that
 7you agree with absolutely everything she says. The fact
 8remains, Mr Irving, that in your accounts of the
 9Reichskristallnacht some years later than 1979, and after
10she had published her work in the course of the 1980s, you
11do adopt a number of her ideas.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you seen the lengthy Darstellung that she sent me?
13It was in the discovery.
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     We used her book and her ----
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     You have used her book?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Wait a minute, and the articles with the pencil lines in
17the margin.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     You have used her articles, but have you seen the lengthy
19typescript letter she sent me with all the details of the
20research that she had done?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     We have not used that in the report, Mr Irving. We have
22used her -- this is not a report about Frau Weckert and
23her works.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     But quite a lot of it is about her, is it not?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The report is about you, and your use of her work. There
26are one, two, three, four, five, about half a dozen pages

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 1here about your reliance on aspects of her work rather
 2than on your own research.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     The inference you are giving in your report -- I am going
 4it move on very shortly from this -- is that I have
 5relied on her book. You go in great detail into her
 6book. You say that her book has been black listed by the
 7Germans. It has been put on the censorship list, has it?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is illegal to sell or lend it to any person under the
 9age of 18 because it is regarded by the authorities as an
10anti-semitic work which is liable to corrupt young minds,
11and also shows no evidence of even minimal attempts at
12truthfulness and objectivity. Let me say once again,
13Mr Irving, that what I demonstrate in my report is that
14you have taken some, although not all, of Ingrid Weckert's
15ideas from her writings, from her articles, which then
16were reprinted and put together as the book.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     But you have not made no reference at all to the fact that
18I had from her a lengthy special Darstellung which she
19wrote at my request and which has no reference to her
20book, which is the thing that has been banned and on which
21I pass critical comment?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Are you claiming that this is entirely different from the
23book and the articles, it says completely things and that
24that is what you use in your book, Mr Irving? I do not
25think so.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     In the corner of the world where you come from, Professor

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 1Evans, do you agree with the censoring of books,
 2blacklisting of books?
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think we need to get into that.
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is an entirely different matter.
 5 MR IRVING:     Why did you mention it then in this report?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Because the German authorities have investigated her work
 7and decided after the investigation that it is
 8anti-semitic, corrupting and shows no evidence of even
 9minimal attempts at truthfulness or objectivity.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     As you said earlier, have we anything----
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     What they do as a result of that is a matter for them.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have we anything to learn from Germany in this last
13century about freedom of speech?
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think that question helps, Mr
15Irving.
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I take that as a rhetorical question, Mr Irving.
17 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Yes. Leave me to deal with the question.
18 MR IRVING:     In paragraph 10 on page 308 you object to the fact
19that I have corrected a wrong date to a correct date.
20What on earth is wrong with that?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Sorry, where is this?
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     In paragraph 10 on page 308. You say he unilaterally
23alters the date of arrival of Goebbels back in Berlin.
24I have corrected a wrong date to a correct date. What is
25wrong with that?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Let me just read back here. I am afraid this might

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 1require ----
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Professor Evans, if this is a point that you
 3do not really place much reliance on, I think I would say
 4so.
 5 MR IRVING:     Again it is an allegation that I have relied on the
 6book, and the wrong date in the book. In fact, of course,
 7I have relied on the correct date from other sources.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It does appear to me, Mr Irving, that whether
 9you actually relied on the book is, in a sense, a bit of a
10side issue. Even if you have not, the criticism that is
11made of you, and you have not really addressed it, is that
12you are content to cite a source who Professor Evans says
13is anti-semitic and not a worth while source for a
14reputable historian to use.
15 MR IRVING:     Let me address that point now, my Lord, by way of a
16response to your Lordship. This is to say that there may
17be some historians with a political bent who will
18disregard entirely evidence coming from people of whose
19politics they disprove. If we were to do that with all
20sources, of course, we would be left without a very large
21body of historical documentation, for example, the works
22of all the Nazi war criminals, somebody like Rudolf Hoess,
23Kommandant of Auschwitz, who clearly was not very
24pro-Semitic, to disregard the writings as somebody on the
25basis of the fact that they have expressed anti-semitic
26views, or racist views, or any other views of which the

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 1researcher personally disapproves, is a very poor
 2criterion for selectivity of documentary materials, in my
 3submission, my Lord.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I see. Would you like to comment very
 5briefly on that? Turn that into a question, if you see
 6what I mean, and give your answer.
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not think anybody suggested that Rudolf Hoess was an
 8historian.
 9 MR IRVING:     Very well, if that is your answer. Now will you go
10down to page 309 and the justification for my having dealt
11with that previous matter at such length, my Lord, is the
12first line of paragraph 1, "another instance of Irving's
13poor scholarship is". In other words, you are saying that
14all the aforegoing is evidence of my poor scholarship?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Indeed, yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Although you now admit that I did not use the book, I have
17not got the book?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Do we have to go over this all over again, Mr Irving? I
19have already given my answer about five times to that.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     I think I have made my point. Page 312, line 6 of your
21report?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, I necessarily have to leap forward onto little
24mountain peaks like this, because otherwise we will get
25bogged down in the minefield.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     As long as they are mountain peaks. You also

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 1must explain to me in what context if you go to the middle
 2of a paragraph. We are on now the testimony of
 3Shirmeister and Fritsche.
 4 MR IRVING:     Professor Evans, you objected to the fact that
 5I have mentioned the figure of 91 deaths in the
 6Reichskristallnacht in the previous paragraphs, or are you
 7going to insist that we look for the actual references?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, it is not a very important point, Mr Irving.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you allow me to decide what is important?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No. Please, I think I am entitled to say what points in
11my report I regard as important, and what I do not regard
12as important. You may disagree with that. That is
13another matter. But I am perfectly entitled to say that.
14This is not a particularly important point ----
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you agree you spent an entire page describing this?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Will let me speak, please, Mr Irving? I am getting very
17fed up with these constant interruptions. I will read
18this out, OK?
19     "In the War Path, published in 1978, Irving
20gave the official figure of 91 killed, arrived at by the
21Nazis themselves. Of course, this figure is still far too
22low, and does not account for suicides, of which there
23were 680 by Jews during or shortly after the pogrom in
24Vienna alone. Others were killed after their transport to
25the concentration camps. However, many other historians
26have quoted the figure of 91 deaths, and Irving's account

.   P-18



 1in 1978 at least gives some insight into what happened
 2during the pogrom".
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you please now stop? That is all we need?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This is intended to comment relatively favourably, or to
 5sort of find some redeeming features in the account you
 6gave in 1978. It is not a very important criticism.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     You say it is not an important criticism. You devote an
 8entire paragraph, an entire page, to the suggestion that
 9my entire portrayal is designed to diminish the suffering
10of the Jews. You pick on the figure of 91 and it turns
11out many other historians have quoted precisely the same
12figure.
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Mr Irving, let us read on a bit, shall we?
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Just read on, Mr Irving. Let me try and get
15some sort of sense into this. If you read that page, I do
16not think Professor Evans is criticising your use of the
17figure of 91. What I think he is saying is (and he is
18being critical here) that after you used that figure in
19'The Warpath', you then reduced it when you came to
20publish your book on Goebbels. Now, I take that to be the
21gist of the criticism. It is probably not the most
22important criticism made, but that is the criticism. So
23let us address that rather than something that is not
24being criticised.
25 MR IRVING:     I will address it briefly because I do not think it
26is a just criticism. Are you suggesting that in the book

.   P-19



 1on Goebbels I left the final death roll at 35?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, in the book on Goring published in '89, the book on
 3Goebbels '96, you cite a figure of 35 or 36 basing it on
 4an early incomplete report by Heydrich.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     You are suggesting that I left it at that figure?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     And I cite Goring page 237, if you want to have a look at
 7that?
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, show him the passage where you
 9bump the figure up again.
10 MR IRVING:     My Lord, you are one who has brought this matter up
11and I am not prepared to answer that at short notice, but
12I will look into it and I will bring the figure and the
13source material out.
14     The point that I was making with that is that on
15several previous occasions he has criticised my figure of
1691 in the Goebbels book, and here he says, "Well, lots of
17other historians have had the same figure"?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     And my point, Mr Irving, as his Lordship has quite
19correctly said, that reduce the figures to 35 or 36 in
20your later work.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     On page 309?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Going back?
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Do you rely on the testimony of Schirmeister and
24Fritzsche and the fact that page numbers and dates are
25wrong as being one more instance of David Irving's poor
26scholarship?

.   P-20



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, let me read that paragraph. You give a footnote on
 2page 281 of Goebbels.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     I summarise it for you? Are you suggesting that I got the
 4dates wrong of the testimony and the pagination wrong
 5which caused your researchers some difficulty?
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     This is one of the tiniest points I would
 7have thought in the entire report that Professor Evans has
 8----
 9 MR IRVING:     My Lord, it is a barrage of tiny points. It is
10death by a thousand cuts. I am picking on some of them
11which I can with relative ease amend the damage.
12 MR RAMPTON:     Can I intervene because that reflects on something
13I raised yesterday. I am very concerned about this
14because it put me in a difficulty. We had passed through
15Reichskristallnacht yesterday, I would have thought.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So did I.
17 MR RAMPTON:     We have now come back to it for what I might call
18pinpricks. One huge section, major section, of Professor
19Evans' of Mr Irving's treatment of Reichskristallnacht was
20the Heydrich telex at 1.28 and we have not touched on it.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You have said just now -- I am trying to
22guide you, Mr Irving -- that you were concentrating on the
23mountain peaks. Absolutely right. That is what you must
24do. Professor Evans has taken some what I agree are
25pretty tiny points, but you must not forget about the
26mountain peaks altogether. I mean, the Heydrich telex is

.   P-21



 1a crucial part of the criticism that is made of your
 2rendering of the accounts of Kristallnacht. I think
 3Mr Rampton is right and I think I am right in saying that
 4you have not really challenged that part of the report.
 5 MR IRVING:     I can deal with the Heydrich telex in two lines,
 6quite simply by pointing to the 2.56 telegram that came
 7subsequently.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Sorry?
 9 MR IRVING:     By pointing to the 2.56 document issued by the
10officer Rudolf Hess which came subsequent to that which
11clarifies that matter.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What do you mean, it clarifies?
13 MR IRVING:     I mean which renders the 1.20 telex, in my view, of
14much less significance.
15 MR RAMPTON:     No, it is not a question of history, my Lord. It
16is the question of how it is written by Mr Irving. I am
17looking at the bottom of page 276 of Goebbels and I see
18what Mr Irving wrote about it. Then if I look at the
19actual document, I think I am looking at two completely
20different things. That is the criticism made by ----
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     This is the criticism Professor Evans makes.
22 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. Mr Irving has not even touched on it. Maybe
23he accepts it as being a fair criticism. That is what
24I need to know.
25 MR IRVING:     Maybe I find these ----
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I mean, there are two points here and they

.   P-22



 1are separate points. One is whether you have accurately
 2reported what the telex or the message or the order or
 3whatever it was said, and the second point is whether it
 4matters one way or another. I quite understand you say
 5you can forget about it because things moved on an hour
 6and a half later.
 7 MR IRVING:     Am I right in understanding that if I do not
 8challenge or traverse something here in cross-examination,
 9then it could be taken as accepted?
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, the mountain peaks, yes. You cannot
11chase every single tiny point, and I would not dream of
12criticising you for not doing so.
13 MR IRVING:     To be accused of poor scholarship, my Lord, is not
14a tiny point.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I follow that, but what I would be critical
16of is if you did not pick up in cross-examination major
17criticisms. It is terribly easy to see what the major
18criticisms are -- at least I believe it is.
19 MR IRVING:     We will come to them, and I am not aided by the
20lengthy discourses which are caused by the very frequent
21interruptions by Mr Rampton.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think they are very frequent and if
23they are justified, then Mr Rampton cannot be criticised
24for making them.
25 MR RAMPTON:     Can I add, while I am on this subject, that is one
26major criticism which seemed to me to have, I do not know

.   P-23



 1what the word is, bypassed a mountain peak. Another one
 2appear to have been bypassed yesterday, and again it puts
 3me in a difficulty because I am bound to say at the end of
 4the case, if these mountain peaks are not tackled, I shall
 5say that Mr Irving has conceded them. Another one was the
 6Himmler log entry for 1st December 1941.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. I think Mr Irving must take his own
 8course.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     I agree.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     In the end, he must cross-examine on what he
11wants to. I am not going to take anything as conceded
12because it is not cross-examined to, but I ----
13 MR IRVING:     Unless I expressly concede it.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- I think it is right that I should take
15into account the fact that he has not challenged it.
16I have to make up my own mind in the end. I do not think
17I can say that the point goes by default.
18 MR RAMPTON:     I am using a shorthand; I would if he were a
19professional advocate, he is not, but I am bound to say
20that I will place considerable weight on the fact that he
21makes no challenge.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I can see why you would.
23 MR IRVING:     Of course, they have been extensively dealt with in
24my cross-examination of me.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, I do not think that is a sufficient
26answer. I said yesterday (and I will say it again) you

.   P-24



 1must cross-examine to the mountain peaks if you want to
 2challenge what Professor Evans says but you can do it
 3briefly.
 4 MR IRVING:     Yes, I shall certainly do so.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Just going back, let us use the Heydrich
 6message of 1.20, or whatever it was ----
 7 MR IRVING:     As an example.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- as an example; if you want to say that
 9what you said about it in Goebbels is entirely accurate
10and no sensible person can criticise your account of it,
11you can put that very briefly.
12 MR IRVING:     My Lord, the submission that I intend to make on a
13number of those matters is, apply the following test: if
14that sentence or that error or that flaw or that
15misreading be taken out of that book, does it in the
16slightest alter the thrust or the weight of the
17arguments?
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is a very good point, but that is a
19point for final submissions ----
20 MR IRVING:     Yes, and that is why ----
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- not for cross-examination.
22 MR IRVING:     --- it may well be that I shall readily concede the
23points when the time comes.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So be it. That, in a way, rather tallies
25with what Mr Rampton just said. But you must make a
26judgment about that, but it is very important you

.   P-25



 1understand how I see the important points and what should
 2do if you are going to challenge Professor Evans'
 3criticisms.
 4 MR IRVING:     My Lord, it is revealing no secrets if I say that
 5in my final speech I shall not be addressing all the
 6issues; I shall be strongly addressing to your Lordship
 7that a number of the issues are of far less moment.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I quite agree.
 9 MR IRVING:     And that the major issues like poor scholarship,
10distortion, manipulation, Holocaust denier and so on are
11the ones to which I shall attend in the final speech.
12That is why, with your Lordship's permission, I intend to
13dwell on matters like poor scholarship in a way that may
14appear infuriating to you, but I can only pick on the
15examples that are given in this report.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, but I am getting the impression -- I am
17Judge alone, I can say this and I do not have to worry
18about the Jury -- I get the slight impression that you are
19cherry picking your way through and alighting on some
20really rather minor points. I mean, the point about
21Schirmeister and Fritzsche, if I may say so, with respect
22to Professor Evans, it be could have been omitted from his
23report without doing any injustice to the Defendants'
24case.
25 MR IRVING:     Let me just ask two brief questions then, my Lord?
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, of course.

.   P-26



 1 MR IRVING:     Professor Evans, you find criticism with the fact
 2that the pagination of the references to the testimony did
 3not tally?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Let me read everything I say about this: "Another
 5instance of Irving's poor scholarship is the footnote
 6reference given on page 281 of Goebbels: 'Mastermind of
 7the "Third Reich"' to back up his claim that 'Goebbels
 8however would brag that he had proved that the Jews could
 9be eliminated from the economy, whatever Funk said to the
10contrary'. When we turn to pages 190-1 and 235-7 of
11volume 17 of the Nuremberg Trials documents, cited by
12Irving as the location of the 'Testimony of Schirmeister
13and Fritzsche, June 28, 1946' in support of his statement,
14we find that the reference for pages 190-1 refers to June
1527 not June 28, that Schirmeister is never mentioned on
16these pages, and that Fritzsche's testimony deals with a
17completely different subject". I am bound to say this is
18a very minor I point. I thought it, on balance, worth
19putting in. I was not advised that it should be taken
20out, but it really is not an important, not a desperately
21important, point.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I ask you just one brief question? Are you aware of
23the fact that there are two parallel editions, one German
24and one English?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     If you -- well, in order -- if you really want to go into
26this, Mr Irving, we will have to look up both editions and

.   P-27



 1have to have copies of both editions of the Nuremberg
 2Trial documents here and a copy of your book, "Goebbels:
 3Master mind of the Third Reich" which I have here.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well ----
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Do we really want to go through this?
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Speaking for myself, I do not think I would.
 7I would forget it. This is not going to feature in any
 8conclusions that I come to in this case.
 9 MR IRVING:     The allegations of poor scholarship, my Lord, rest
10substantially on these trivial complaints.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not accept that, Mr Irving.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Pages 321 to 322. We are now back in Riga at the
13shootings. Can I ask you just a brief, simple question to
14start with? Professor Evans, do you challenge my account
15of the shootings at Riga, the actual shootings on November
1630th 1941, and if so, why?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Tell me what your account is, where it is, what you are
18referring to exactly.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you read, in pursuance of your duties as an expert
20witness, the account I have given of that in various books
21including Hitler's War volume 2 -- the second edition,
22rather, and the Goebbels biography?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Can you point me to one of these, please?
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We can do that quite quickly.
25 MR IRVING:     My problem here, my Lord, is once again the fact
26that this is not the right witness to ask these questions

.   P-28



 1of.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Why not?
 3 MR IRVING:     Because this was certainly the matter to be
 4addressed to the Holocaust witness rather than to this
 5witness, but he has spent a page and a half looking at
 6this episode, and I am just trying to deal with this
 7summarily. Does he accept my account is right?
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think that is a very sensible question to
 9start with actually.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, well, turn to pages 347 and 348 of my report, and
11there you will see my criticisms.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That should give us the reference too for
13the ...
14 MR IRVING:     The manipulation of statistics?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can somebody find us the passage in Hitler's
17War? It is not very good on its index.
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This is also Goebbels, page 645.
19 MR IRVING:     Shall we just dwell on the Goebbels one which is a
20more recent one?
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. That is page 645 or thereabouts.
22 MR IRVING:     Yes, the footnotes. (To the witness): Do you
23suggest, witness, that I have given the wrong overall
24total for the number of Jews killed in Riga or on this
25specific day?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     First of all, you say that on 30th November 1941 5,000

.   P-29



 1Jews were killed.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Whereas there is a documentation to indicate that 10,000
 4were killed and after the war the court accepted that the
 5number was actually between 13 and 15,000. You then
 6claim, when you are confronted with this evidence, that
 7each ditch into which these unfortunate people were
 8dumped, shot, would have held 1 or 2,000 victims without
 9having any evidence at all about the size of the ditches.
10That is the first point.
11     Then the second point is that in the main
12narrative in Goebbels you do not say anything about the
13second massacre on 8th December. You do, however, as
14I say, in the footnotes say that 27,800 Jews are executed
15in Riga, but you then claim that that is possibly an
16exaggeration.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can we take those two points?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     And that is -- yes.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, take them one by one.
20 MR IRVING:     Take them one at a time. So we are now on pages
21347 and 348?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     You say: "Faced with this evidence", five lines from the
24bottom, right, of page 347?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     "Faced with this evidence, Irving offers a further

.   P-30



 1argument". Why do you say "faced with this evidence"?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Do you not mention this evidence?
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did you find these documents that you referred to earlier
 4in that paragraph in my discovery or are they referenced
 5in my footnotes?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Let me just have a look. This is the Bruns and then there
 7is the ----
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     The evidence for the figure of 10,600 shot on that day
 9which was a book published in 1989. You have no evidence
10that I was faced with that evidence, do you?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     What you do, what you say is that they will have held 1 or
122,000 victims each. What you are aware of, you see, in
13the second -- let us leap to the second account here -- is
14that Einsatzgruppen A reported that a total of 27,800 Jews
15were executed in Riga, which seems to be a pretty accurate
16estimate and that is the evidence that you are faced with.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is the second part of the question?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     And are you saying that you ----
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     And you object to the fact that I say that this is
20possibly exaggerated?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, there is this -- you say that is possibly
22exaggerated, yes, you try to cast doubt upon it, and then
23you mention the size of the ditches without mentioning
24their depth.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     We will come back to the size of the ditches. You take
26exception to the fact that I say that 27,800 is possibly

.   P-31



 1exaggerated. You are familiar with the historian
 2Ezergailis, the Baltic historian who is, I think we both
 3agree, an expert on this matter?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I cite him in footnote 75.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     And at the end of that paragraph 2 you say that he has
 6arrived at figures of certainly almost 25,000 Jews killed?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right, yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     So 27,800 is about 12 per cent more than that, is it not?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The estimates by the court in Hamburg is about 25 to
1030,000.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is Ezergailis, Andrew Ezergailis, who, as you say, used
12various methods of calculating the victims arrived also at
13figures of certainly almost, in other words, less than,
1425,000 less killed?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Mr Irving, when you saw possibly an exaggeration, you do
16not mean to suggest to the reader that it might have been
17a couple of thousand or 2,800 less.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     12 per cent?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think you are casting in your usual, a way that you
20frequently employ, you are trying to cast a general doubt
21on these figures. "Possibly an exaggeration" does not
22mean that it is within that range of possibilities.
23I think you are trying to suggest it could be a gross
24exaggeration.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can we just, I am trying keep an eye on the
26wood rather than looking at the trees. The first

.   P-32



 1criticism, if I remember what you said a few minutes ago,
 2was that if anyone just read the text in Goebbels, he
 3would get the impression that there were only 5,000
 4killed. Am I right so far?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     And that is page 379 of the text?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I cannot find a reference to 5,000. I can find a
 9reference to 4,000.
10 MR RAMPTON:     It is 1,000 plus 4?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     1 plus 4. 1,000 from Berlin and 4,000 from Riga.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Are you saying -- Mr Irving will, no doubt,
13ask you a question if you are wrong about it -- that there
14is no reference in the text to any more Jews having been
15shot at Riga than the 5,000?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right.
17 MR IRVING:     But the reference is there in the end notes at the
18back to 27,800, is that right?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, where you frequently put embarrassing things in
20footnotes hoping, no doubt, that the common reader will
21not consult them.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Why would I put footnotes in a book if I hoped that the
23reader would not consult them? Would it not just be
24simpler not to put them in at all?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, it is a matter of what strategy you are adopting to
26try to make your work plausible to those, that minority of

.   P-33



 1readers who will consult the footnotes.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Which of us has the minority of readers? Me with my best
 3selling books or you with the 10,000?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is not what I meant.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     The suggestion that I put footnotes in a book in the hope
 6that nobody will read them is rather implausible, is it
 7not?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No. I think that the average reader does not consult the
 9footnotes. You are addressing yourself to two audiences,
10as I think you yourself said under cross-examination. You
11are addressing yourself to the general reader, but also to
12people who have a more specialized knowledge.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you accept that if you are writing a book which has a
14strong chronological flow and you are dealing with an
15episode that in happened in November, it would be
16disruptive to the reader to be told about things at the
17end of December and that it, therefore, makes sense to put
18in footnotes the overall result of this kind of murder
19operation?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is not the end of December, Mr Irving. It is 8th
21December. That is a week later.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but would you accept that it is confusing for ----
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is not a huge chronological gap.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- a reader to be ----
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I will not accept it. I think you have a duty to give
26an accurate estimate of the numbers killed, and not to

.   P-34



 1partly underestimate it and then hide the actual final
 2number in a footnote and cast doubt on it in a footnote.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are there better ways of hiding things than printing
 4things in books; you can hide them by just dropping on the
 5floor, like the Schlegelberger document?
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think you have asked that question and I
 7think you have got the answer.
 8 MR IRVING:     I have, my Lord, and I will I move on now to the
 9pits.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, would you, because I have not quite got
11the picture on that.
12 MR IRVING:     Do you agree that General Bruns in his gripping and
13harrowing account of the mass shootings that occurred on
14November 30th 1941 -- you remember the girl with the flame
15red dress that he had in his mind's eye just before she
16was shot? Do you agree that he describes that there were
17two or three pits of a certain length and a certain
18width.
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     And can we not calculate from that in a rough -- can we
21not do a check sum to work out the feasibility of numbers
22of bodies that would fit into those pits?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, you cannot, unless you know the depth.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     How deep can a pit be dug, do you think?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Oh, goodness! I mean, any depth. I would not want to
26make an estimate, I mean.

.   P-35



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you accept that I am expert in digging pits, having
 2worked in my early years as a student as a navvi for many
 3years in order to finance my way through university?
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, come on. You can dig a pit as
 5deep as you have got the energy to dig it.
 6 MR IRVING:     My Lord, that is a very hazardous operation if you
 7are standing at the bottom of the pit and you dig it
 8without any kind of shoring. I would now draw your
 9Lordship's attention to one such pit which is photographed
10in the little bundle I gave you. It is the last item in
11the bundle. It provides a useful check point for the
12depth that these pits go when they are only three metres
13wide.
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     And you are saying, are you, Mr Irving, that this is one
15of the pits in Riga? This is an authenticated photograph
16of one of them?
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     This is, well, as you can tell by the British soldier
18standing around with machine guns, this is probably
19Bergen-Belsen or Buchenwald, where the victims of Nazi
20atrocities are being buried by some of the perpetrators.
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     And what does that tell us about the pits in Riga,
22Mr Irving?
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am sorry, my Lord. You do not have the photograph?
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think maybe I am missing a few pages off
25the back of this little clip.
26 MR IRVING:     This is the photograph from my collection of

.   P-36



 1original photographs that I have assembled over the years
 2of Nazi atrocities.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What is the question?
 4 MR IRVING:     Yes. Do you have the photograph in front of you?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. I will take it out again.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you give a rough estimate as to how wide and probably
 7how long that pit or, at any rate, how wide the pit is?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Mr Irving, I am not -- this is not one of the pits at
 9Riga. This is no relevance whatsoever to the matter we
10are dealing with.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is relevant to the matter of how deep you can dig a pit
12in circumstances like this ----
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You can dig pit any depth you like, Mr Irving.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is that your expert evidence as a pit digger or can we
15apply some common sense?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     As it happens, I have been having my house reconstructed,
17Mr Irving, recently ----
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is as may be.
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- and people have been digging pits and I have watched
20them, so I do know something about digging pits.
21 MR IRVING:     Can I ask my Lord, did your Lordship consider that
22it is possible now using that photograph to make some
23basic assumptions about the kind of pits and graves that
24were dug and whether they had layers of soil on top of
25them and...
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Put your case briefly for saying that the

.   P-37



 1pits could have contained -- well, put your case briefly.
 2 MR IRVING:     Would you agree, as General Bruns describes, the
 3ditch was 24 yards long and 3 metres wide, and if it was 2
 4metres deep, that would be 144 cubic metres?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     25 metres long and 3 metres wide? No, I do not, no. They
 6could have dug it any depth they wanted to.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     We will ignore that remark for the moment and continue
 8with this calculation, please. Will you agree that if the
 9pit is 25 by 3 by 2 metres deep, for an example, it would
10be 150 cubic metres?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am not going to challenge your mathematics, Mr Irving,
12but it really is not a very relevant question. I do not
13know how deep these pits.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let him continue. I see which way he is
15going. That is on the assumption it is 2 metres deep, the
16arithmetic is right.
17 MR IRVING:     Yes. Would you agree that the bodies were not left
18exposed, that there was a certain amount of back fill done
19afterwards?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, if you wish.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     So, in other words, 2 metres of this hypothetical pit
22would not be used. But let us assume that it was used and
23let us assume that the walls went straight down, they did
24not slope inwards, as you can see in the photograph which
25is before you, so there we would have 150 cubic metres,
26and you can get about 10 bodies to a cubic metre if you do

.   P-38



 1a calculation with which I will not bother you. So how
 2many bodies would be in that pit, just on that rough order
 3of magnitude?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You say this all in your footnote, "It would have held 1
 5or 2,000 victims each", that is what you say, but it is
 6entirely hypothetical. There is a number of "ifs" in that
 7question ----
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Just one "if"?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- if that is the question you were asking. It is
10entirely hypothetical. We do not know how deep this pit
11was.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     So if it was 2 metres deep and if it had straight sides
13and if there was no back fill ----
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is three "ifs", Mr Irving.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- would you stop interrupting -- you would get 1,500
16bodies into that pit, is that right?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     So if it was another metre deep, you would get another 750
19in, so you can do an order of magnitude calculation, can
20you?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     On the basis of those four "ifs", yes, you can do any
22calculation you like.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     So you can do a ball park calculation of two or three pits
24of that kind of size and magnitude would hold of the order
25of, say, three to 7,000 bodies?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, on the basis of those four hypotheticals, yes.

.   P-39



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did you bother to do such a check sum before you
 2criticised me?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I did not know how deep the pits were, Mr Irving. My
 4criticism is that there is no evidence of the depth of the
 5pits. You do not provide any. You simply make all these
 6if, if, if assumptions and then somehow treat them as
 7facts.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you accept that when you are writing history and you
 9cannot get all these documents on hand, occasionally you
10have to make common sense calculations and deductions?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This is not common sense, Mr Irving. This is a systematic
12attempt to undermine the figure given of 27,800 Jews,
13suggesting that this is too large. This is typical of
14your minimisation of the statistics of the numbers of Jews
15killed in any number of instances.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Right. On to the next point, Mr Irving. I
17think we have exhausted that.
18 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I just say, you do accept that I had a
19document which stated the figure of 5,000, and that it is
20within the order of magnitude that the pits would allow?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     When you write books, Professor, just as an after thought,
23do you ever bother to look at photographic evidence like
24that?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I look at photographic evidence, yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, we now come to the Himmler telephone notes. We

.   P-40



 1have some brief after thoughts. November 30th and
 2December 1st. We are on page 351 ----
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     If I can just tidy my desk?
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     While you are tidying, I can ask you, do you remember
 5yesterday saying that we had, of course, no evidence
 6whatsoever that Himmler telephoned Heydrich. It could
 7easily have been the other way round, could it not?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think that is a point you yourself made, Mr Irving,
 9about this telephone log. It does not say who telephoned
10whom.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was this, in fact, the point you made because I am asking
12the questions.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Does it matter? Does it matter in the
14slightest? I mean, tell me if it does.
15 MR IRVING:     Will you agree that on page 351 you on more than
16one occasion state, as a matter of fact, that Himmler
17telephoned Heydrich?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, that is an after thought I had on reconsidering this,
19re-reading this suddenly. As a result of what you
20yourself said, and you pointed out that one did not know
21who was phoning whom and I took that on board.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can you explain very briefly why it matters
23one way or the other?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is additional uncertainty. The point at issue here, my
25Lord, as you know, is that Mr Irving has on a number of
26occasions claimed that this is a Hitler order given by

.   P-41



 1Hitler to Himmler to transmit then to Heydrich and that
 2----
 3 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Well, you have got to get the link between Hitler and
 4Himmler.
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is the link between Hitler and Himmler which has not
 6been established, and this is a phone log in which there
 7is some uncertainty which I think a responsible historian
 8has to point out. That is all.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, no, I follow why it could be of some
10marginal significance.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is not hugely important.
12 MR IRVING:     You say that this is not hugely important?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The vital question is the link between Hitler and Himmler,
14plus, of course, your misrepresentation in a number of
15your publications of the contents of the message.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you accept that this document is a significant
17document or is it totally unimportant in the flow of
18things?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, it is a significant document.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is a significant document. Who first found it and who
21first used it? Was it a revisionist?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not think you described yourself as a revisionist
23then, Mr Irving.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was it a historian on whom you have generally looked down
25throughout the last few days?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Mr Irving, I have not at any point disputed the fact that

.   P-42



 1you have discovered large numbers of documents.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did anybody in the world bother to read those telephone
 3notes before I did?
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, everybody accepts you deserve
 5credit for not only uncovering this document but a great
 6many others as well?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is what you do with them that is the problem.
 8 MR IRVING:     You mean I make use of them? Is that is the
 9problem?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, you misuse them .
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us get to the point.
12 MR IRVING:     Will you look at the Peter Witte book, the Himmler
13diaries?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Could I have a copy, please?
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     If mine has not been nicked, then I will lend you mine.
16Here we are. I say that with----
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Will you not need it yourself?
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     I know most of these documents off by heart.
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Mr Rampton, I think Mr Irving should have a copy, really.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     April 20th 1942.
21 MR RAMPTON:     If you do not mind, I will keep mine.
22 MR IRVING:     April 20th 1942.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Where are we?
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is a horribly expensive book. It is over £100, I
25believe.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That explains why I do not have one, does it?

.   P-43



 1 MR IRVING:     April 20th 1942. While you are looking for it,
 2what significance did the date of April 20th have?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is Hitler's birthday.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Adolf Hitler's birth date. If Himmler was visiting Hitler
 5on that occasion, as he was, if he was at the Wolfschanze,
 6Hitler's headquarters, is it likely he would have said
 7more than just, "happy birthday Mein Fuhrer, many happy
 8returns"?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It says here that he goes to see Hitler at 12.30 and at
10half past one he brings him the congratulations of the
11SS. Then at half past two he has a kind of, I guess,
12birthday lunch.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does he telephone Heydrich on that day?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     At 12 o'clock, yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is one of the references in that telephone message "keine
16Vernichtung der Zigeuner"?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes it is.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     What does that translate into English?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     "No annihilation of the gypsies".
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does that look like murder in that connection?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No. Clearly, they have been considering killing the
22gypsies, but they are not clear about whether all the
23gypsies should be killed. So he is ordering that they
24should not be.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Not clear? If somebody says "keine Vernichtung der
26Zigeuner", that seems pretty clear to me that an order is

.   P-44



 1being given that gypsies are not to be killed. Would you
 2agree? If that is the word, "vernichtung", in that case?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The Nazis of course divided the gypsies into mixed race
 4gypsies, who were the majority, and what they regarded as
 5pure bred gypsies, who were in a small minority, and for
 6reasons of his rather strange interest in racial history,
 7Himmler wanted to keep the pure bred gypsies alive to
 8subject them to investigation.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is there any indication of those considerations in this
10telephone call? Is there any reference to pure bred
11gypsies, or half-bred gypsies, or is it just to gypsies?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, as the footnote explains, 5,000 gypsies had
13recently, just before this telephone conversation, been
14killed in the woods in Chelmno, and it quotes an order by
15Himmler, which is preserved in the Moscow archives, that
16gypsies who were settled should not be proceeded against.
17Of course, the fact is that the Nazis did kill very, very
18large numbers of gypsies in the Second World War in
19Auschwitz and elsewhere. They are the one racial group,
20apart from the Jews, who suffered this kinds of genocide.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     So, although what appears to have been a clear order not
22to kill the gypsies was issued by somebody at Hitler's
23headquarters on April 20th 1942, the Nazis killed large
24numbers of gypsies?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     We do not know how this was followed up, and we do not
26know precisely which gypsies this referred to.

.   P-45



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     The follow up appears to have been that large numbers were
 2killed.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Are we not wandering miles away? I am sorry
 4to keep interrupting, but we started off on 30th November
 51941.
 6 MR IRVING:     We have moved on.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Altogether?
 8 MR IRVING:     I think so, yes, my Lord. We dealt with it at some
 9length yesterday.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     All right.
11 MR IRVING:     That was an afterthought, as I said. We have now
12moved on. I do not know if your Lordship considers this
13item of relevance?
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not quite sure where we are going. If
15you could help me?
16 MR IRVING:     This is one of the chain, actually. This document
17I consider to be one of the chain of Hitler----
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Your argument is that, because there was an
19order, and you say emanates from Hitler, that the gypsies
20should not be killed, that indicates a concern also for
21the Jews? I am not belittling the argument but that is
22what it is?
23 MR IRVING:     It is a high carat, a 22 carat piece of evidence,
24if I can put it like that, written in the handwriting of
25the mass murderer himself, Heinrich Himmler, in Hitler's
26headquarters, an order from somebody else to him.

.   P-46



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Sorry, Mr Irving. Can I just quote this diary here?
 2"12 o'clock, telephone with Heydrich. Visit to Greiser,
 3so on, Poles, keine vernichtung der Zigeuner, no
 4annihilation of the gypsies". That is 12 o'clock. "12.30
 5travel to Hitler's headquarters, Fuhrerhauptquartier,
 612.30". Underneath that there is a line that says "RFSS",
 7that is the Reichsfuhrer SS, that is Himmler, Mein Fuhrer,
 8with the Fuhrer. So the telephone conversation with
 9Heydrich which says, "keine vernichtung der Zigeuner",
10happened half an hour before Himmler even set off to see
11Hitler.
12 MR IRVING:     Pure chance then that this is on that day, April
1320th, and there is no connection at all therefore in your
14opinion with Adolf Hitler or the Fuhrer's headquarters?
15This is just Himmler suddenly having had a brainstorm,
16saying, "let us not kill the gypsies"?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yet it happened after all, did it not? They were killed?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     As I say, we are not quite sure how long this lasted. If
20you can trace that up as literature, you can say how long
21this lasted, which groups it applied to, and so on and so
22forth. For the moment he is saying, "keine vernichtung
23der Zigeuner". It has nothing whatsoever to do with
24Hitler. He had not seen Hitler at that time. There are
25plenty of other things that he puts in this which also
26appear to have nothing at all to do with the date, 20th

.   P-47



 1April. "Termine", for example, visit to Greiser. That
 2has nothing to do with Hitler's birthday.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you consider it to be a significant entry in the
 4telephone log?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This? "Keine vernichtung der Zigeuner"? Yes, of course.
 6It is very interesting.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you seen it mentioned by any other historians
 8whatsoever at any time?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have not seen any other historian claiming that this is
10an order by Hitler.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Have I got this document, Mr Irving?
12 MR RAMPTON:     Your Lordship really ought to have a copy of this
13book.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have a feeling that somewhere the reference
15----
16 MR RAMPTON:     I copied the relevant pages for 30th November and
171st December.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     30th November and the 1st, certainly.
19 MR RAMPTON:     Those you have. I have never looked at this
20before. There was a copy of it produced by Mr Irving at
21some stage.
22 MR IRVING:     This is probably in the Schlegelberger file.
23 MR RAMPTON:     And I pointed out at that time that this took
24place before Himmler had lunch.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I knew I had seen it but, if somebody
26could give me the reference for it, I would be grateful.

.   P-48



 1 MR RAMPTON:     Yes I will try to find it?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Would you look to borrow this, briefly?
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I would rather have the reference. Is it
 4J2? I have not got a J2, incidentally.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     Nor have I.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     These points just will not really get home
 7unless I have got the document. I am sorry, Mr Irving, to
 8interrupt.
 9 MR IRVING:     I can do it in a very nice way, my Lord, by lending
10your Lordship the volume of the Himmler diary.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is very kind. But in a way I would
12rather have the actual document in a file that I am going
13to be keeping, because I am not going to keep the book.
14 MR IRVING:     I can have a photocopy of that page made during the
15luncheon adjournment. That is the actual handwritten
16text.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think I am actually getting close to it. J
18Yes, I have it. It is J1, tab 3, for the transcript page
1923.
20 MR IRVING:     Would you agree, Professor Evans, that this is an
21odd way for other historians to write history, cheerily
22omitting documents which you consider to be significant,
23or which you agree to be significant?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, it is cited by, I think, by Zimmerman's standard
25work on the gypsies. I have to say that the gypsies,
26until recently, were not a much studied group of victims

.   P-49



 1of the Nazis. Once again, Mr Irving, it is not a problem
 2for me that you made use of this. It is the use that you
 3made, the way you use it.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you referenced this particular item in your report?
 5Can you remember what your criticism of my use of this
 6item is?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am making my criticism now. It is that you are claiming
 8that this is an order from Hitler when it clearly is not.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     And, using your common sense, of which you are apparently
10well endowed, you would not consider there is any
11connection between the fact that this very unusual order,
12for which there is no precedent, occurs only on the day of
13Adolf Hitler's birthday, when Himmler is at Hitler's
14headquarters?
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We have had that point.
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     He was not at Hitler's headquarters, Mr Irving.
17 MR IRVING:     It is an exact parallel to the November 30th
18episode then, is it not? Is that right?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     He was not at Hitler's headquarters. He went to Hitler's
20headquarters after he made the telephone call. It says
21here in black and white.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is this an exact parallel to the November ----
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     So you have just made a completely false claim.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is this an exact parallel to the November 30th 1941
25episode where the telephone call to Heydrich appears to
26ante-date the visit to Hitler?

.   P-50



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is not an exact parallel but there are similarities.
 2The 30th November telephone call concerns one particular
 3train load of Jews. That is quite clear.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sorry to interrupt. I had better have a
 5photocopy from somebody of that page because it obviously
 6has more than I have at the moment.
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     We are back to 30th November.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
 9 MR IRVING:     My Lord I will provide you with a photocopy of the
10facsimile, but also with a typescript copy.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That would be kind.
12 MR IRVING:     Because the handwriting is, as we have discovered,
13sometimes prone to misreading.
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right, on page 278.
15 MR IRVING:     Page 278?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     13.30 Jew transport from Berlin. No liquidation. And
17then 14.30 to 1600, lunch with the Fuhrer.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Can you keep that page roughly open because we are
19now going to go on to the December 1st item.
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Right.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Professor Evans, have you misread any words in preparing
22your expert report for this case?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I hope not, but one can never be entirely sure.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     As you have said yourself many times ----
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     These things happen?

.   P-51



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     -- one always makes errors and one does one's best to
 2correct them. That is why I sent you an 18 page list of
 3corrections and amendments to my report on 10th January.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you agree that mostly misreadings are quite
 5innocuous and have no serious consequences?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I hope that is true of mine. I do not believe that is
 7true of yours.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you remember The Spectator letter where the omission of
 9the one word "as" totally reversed the meaning of that
10letter?
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We have been through that.
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not think that was my misreading.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We are more concerned with the criticisms of
14you, rather than the criticisms you make of Professor
15Evans. I understand why you make them, but let us focus
16on the point. I know the arguments now.
17 MR IRVING:     It is a little bit more colour and flourish to the
18argument about to develop, my Lord. Would you agree that
19a historian who sits in a book lined cave taking printed
20books off shelves, like the Himmler diary in front of you,
21with a nice index and photographs and beautifully bound,
22is less likely to make reading errors than somebody who
23uses the handwritten original, what I might call a shirt
24sleeves historian, who goes into the archives and reads
25the microfilm? Is the latter, the shirt sleeved
26historian, more likely, more prone to commit these stupid

.   P-52



 1blunders of reading an E for an A, or something like that?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, it is easier, obviously, to read the printed text
 3than it is to read handwriting. It goes without saying.
 4I have done an enormous amount of reading of handwritten
 5German myself and I know how difficult it is.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Or can be. It depends a lot on the kind of handwriting,
 8of course.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If I may suggest it, I think probably the
10best thing to do is to show the witness the script.
11 MR IRVING:     We have two or three versions of it.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     There is only one manuscript version.
13 MR RAMPTON:     No. There are two different forms of copy, my
14Lord.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Show the better one.
16 MR RAMPTON:     There is one that Mr Irving produced. I am quite
17happy for Mr Irving to use the copy that he produced.
18 MR IRVING:     I think that would be more fair.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think that is J1, tab 3, page 14 but I may
20be wrong.
21 MR RAMPTON:     That is right.
22 MR IRVING:     We have the actual version I used here.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have the microfilm version.
24 MR RAMPTON:     If Mr Irving is going to use his own copy, I would
25like Professor Evans to have the same copy. No doubt, if
26it is necessary, I can come back to the better copy, the

.   P-53



 1microfilm, in due course in re-examination, if I have to.
 2But, if Mr Irving is going to use his rather worse copy,
 3then I think Professor Evans should have the same one.
 4Professor Evans will need the J file, J1, tab 3, at page
 514.
 6 MR IRVING:     We are looking first at the November 30th entry
 7which is Judentransport?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Oh right, yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     We will start with that one.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Then I have not got that here, I am afraid.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     There is no need to look at the actual wording. We are
12going to look at the word "transport" very briefly, my
13Lord.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We all know what the point is.
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Could you point me to exactly where it is.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     J1, tab 3, page 12.
17 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I have done a little research on the word
18"transport" but I am sure Mr Rampton will not begrudge me
19----
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Put your question, which I could put for you
21because I know what it is going to be.
22 MR IRVING:     I will give my version of the question which is as
23follows, Professor Evans.
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you familiar with the fact that the Cassell's German
26Dictionary translates the word "transport" only as

.   P-54



 1follows: "The German word transport has only these
 2meanings" in the Cassell's Dictionary and I will give the
 3Langenscheidt one in a moment. The Cassell's entry has it
 4in this order: "Transport, transportation, carriage,
 5conveyance, transfer, shipment". So is it actually
 6referring to a vehicle or to a concept?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     What date is this dictionary, Mr Irving?
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     The Cassell's Dictionary has remained unchanged in this
 9particular one since 1935.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Are you quoting the 1935 edition?
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. I spent a lot of money buying them at five year
12intervals to see if it changed, and they just used a
13photographic copy the whole way through.
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Can I see a copy, please?
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Let us refer to the Langenscheidt edition?
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think the witness is entitled to have the
17contemporary Cassell's Dictionary shown to him if he wants
18to see it.
19 MR IRVING:     My Lord, the point is, if you are looking at a word
20without the surrounding context, and you are looking for a
21translation, you pick the primary meaning. If you then
22later on learn ----
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. We do not want to overdo this point.
24You put that the dictionary meaning of "transport"
25includes as one of the meanings "transportation" and you
26say that has been the Cassell's Dictionary definition

.   P-55



 1since time immemorial. The witness says he wants to look
 2at the relevant one, which would be the one from the
 31930s, and I think that is a fair request.
 4 MR IRVING:     Can I just show him the typed extract I made last
 5night?
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If it relates to the contemporary Cassell's
 7Dictionary, yes.
 8 MR IRVING:     In that case I will just put to the witness this
 91935 dictionary.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is it Cassell's?
11 MR IRVING:     No. This is now a different one. This is a Butler
12&Tanner. It is a Routledge Dictionary and unfortunately
13it is more abbreviated. It does not give the sense that
14I was looking for in such detail. The point I was trying
15to make, my Lord, is that it refers to "transportation"
16rather than "a transport" in the sense of a train.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I know what the point is.
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Here, of course, it does not.
19 MR IRVING:     It just says "transport" which is ambiguous.
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     "Transport conveyance", transport or conveyance.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Those are the primary meanings.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     I will have to put it to you to in an "if" form, then, and
24on Monday bring the photocopy of the original. Professor
25Evans, if the 1935 or if the contemporary wartime edition
26of the Cassell's Dictionary says that the meaning of

.   P-56



 1"transport" in English is in this order of priority,
 2"transport, transportation, carriage, conveyance,
 3transfer and shipment", is it unreasonable to assume, in
 4the absence of any contextual information, that this is
 5referring to a transportation, rather than to a single
 6train load?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is unreasonable, I think, yes, from the context here.
 8"Judentransport aus Berlin. Keine Liquidierung" quite
 9clearly means "the Jew transport from Berlin, no
10liquidation". I think it is likely that, had it said, had
11they meant there should be no liquidation of any
12transport, train loads of Jews from Berlin, then it would
13have said something, they would have said so in the
14plural, transporte, or he would have put down something
15like people, emigrants, or people who were deported, or
16whatever. Let us try and remember what it is that you
17actually wrote in Hitler's War in 1977.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am trying to narrow this down to a simple matter.
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Which is that Himmler was summoned to the Wolf's Lair for
20a secret conference with Hitler, I am quoting from your
21book here, at which the fate of Berlin's Jews was clearly
22raised. "At 1.30 pm Hitler was obliged to telephone from
23Hitler's bunker to Heydrich, the explicit order that Jews
24were not to be liquidated". That is what you said in your
25book. You did not mention Berlin there at all.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can we keep to the language problem, which is to say, that

.   P-57



 1if it was what you said----
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am sure you would like to, Mr Irving.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     -- the Jew transport, would it not be "der Judentransport
 4aus Berlin"?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, because his telephone log, as you know perfectly well,
 6is in a very abbreviated form that generally leaves out
 7the definite article.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Leaves out the context, is that right?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No leaves out the definite article, is what I said. You
10can go two lines up, "Verhaftung Dr Jekelius". It does
11not say "Die Verhaftung Dr Jekelius".
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     What you are saying, this is your expert evidence, is that
13"Judentransport" could under no circumstances be
14translated as "transportation of Jews from Berlin"?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is not quite what I am saying.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you accept that it can?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Just let me answer.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Just say yes or no. Will you accept that it can?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I am not going to say yes or no, I am going to give
20you a full answer.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is what I am trying to avoid, because we really are
22running out of time.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I know you are trying to avoid it, Mr Irving.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     We are familiar with your full answers, unfortunately.
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I did swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing
26but the truth.

.   P-58



 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It will not be very long, this answer, I do
 2not think.
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It says "Judentransport aus Berlin". That is the
 4context. Jew transport from Berlin. It is clear it means
 5a single train load of Jews, "Keine Liquidierung".
 6 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Are you saying it is clear to because you are now familiar
 7from the context of all the other documents we know, as
 8indeed I am also now, that that is the correct
 9translation. But my question to you is, if you are faced
10just with that one line in a document that you read back
11in 1970, knowing none of the surrounding documentation,
12right, that it would be totally improper and perverse to
13translate that as "transportation of Jews from Berlin",
14which was the sense that I gave?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. That is what I am saying. And particularly perverse
16to say that it is an explicit order which Hitler has told
17Himmler to transmit that Jews were not to be liquidated.
18No mention of Berlin at all there, Mr Irving. That is a
19clear falsification of this document.
20 MR IRVING:     Avoiding your renewed smoke screen which you are
21laying across the question I put ----
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not going to have you saying that. The
23criticism is that you misrepresented this document in your
24book.
25 MR IRVING:     That is a separate criticism, my Lord, with
26respect.

.   P-59



 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     On the contrary, it is the whole point of the
 2criticism. It would not be made unless you had
 3misrepresented, as the Defendants say you did, this
 4document. We not be looking at this document at all.
 5 MR IRVING:     In that case I shall have to ask further questions
 6on the question of the meaning of the word, which
 7I thought I had established superabundantly to the
 8satisfaction of the court and everybody present, that a
 9primary meaning of the word is transportation and, when
10one has no other document to go by, and the court has not
11been shown that at that time I had any other document to
12go by ----
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I know what your case is, Mr Irving.
14I really do, and I do not think you need spend any longer
15on the pure linguistics.
16 MR IRVING:     In that case I shall move on.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     In the contemporary dictionary you showed me, Mr Irving,
18the word "transportation" was not there at all. How can
19it be a primary meaning?
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     In both Cassell's and Langenscheidt "transportation" is
21given as the primary meaning after "transport". In the
22Langenscheidt case it is given as the primary meaning.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have not seen these dictionaries.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think we have really spent long enough.
25I know what the issue is.
26 MR IRVING:     When, in your view, did adequate contextual

.   P-60



 1material in this connection come into the public domain,
 2which would have enabled me to correct the misreading, let
 3me put it like that?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The adequate contextual material is there in the document
 5itself and consists of two words "aus Berlin".
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Why, in your view, is that adequate contextual material as
 7to the nature of the transport or transportation?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You said adequate contextual material to correct your
 9error. Your error was that you said it is an explicit
10order that Jews were not to be liquidated without any
11mention of the fact that we are referring to Berlin.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     We are still concentrating on the word "transport" and
13I am not looking at the "aus Berlin". Will you now answer
14my question? When, in your view did adequate contextual
15material, and I am referring to other source documents,
16come to light, come into the public domain, which would
17enable one to put a proper meaning on that? I am
18referring, for example, to the police decodes.
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have already given the answer, which is that there is
20adequate material in the document itself to make it quite
21clear that it means "Jew transport from Berlin".
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     As opposed----
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, really we must move on. I think
24we are spending an absurd amount of time on an issue which
25is quite clear to me, and I know what your case is. You
26have put it perfectly adequately to the witness. You do

.   P-61



 1not gain anything by going on putting it to him time and
 2time again.
 3 MR IRVING:     I am trying not to go into the meaning of the
 4word. I am asking about when I should have known. This
 5is the question.
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You should have known when you read it.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The witness has said perfectly clearly that
 8the context of the whole document, the document, makes it
 9clear what is being referred to and that you
10misrepresented it in your book.
11 MR IRVING:     Which is, I respectfully submit, an absurd answer.
12Anybody looking at that one document in 1970 could not
13possibly have decided between different meanings of the
14word.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is one of the things I will have to
16decide.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Mr Irving, you did decide. You decided that it meant it
18is an explicit order from Hitler via Himmler that Jews
19were not to be liquidated. You refer to it frequently.
20Hitler ordered on November 30th 1941 -- I am quoting you
21here -- incontrovertible evidence that Hitler ordered on
22November 30th 1941 that there was to be "no liquidation of
23the Jews".
24 MR IRVING:     I am not going to get dragged back into that
25argument again because his Lordship will not allow it.
26Can we now ask the following question----

.   P-62



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is your interpretation of the document.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Professor Evans, you are ONLY provoking A
 3continuation of what I think has become an exhausted
 4topic. So let us move on.
 5 MR IRVING:     When the appropriate material came into the public
 6domain, by which I mean the police decodes, SS documents
 7and other materials in the 1970s and the 1980s, did I make
 8the appropriate adjustment in the publication of the book
 9the Goebbels biography?
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What page?
11 MR IRVING:     Well, this is the ----
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is about 379, I think. It says 379
13towards the foot of the page.
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     At the bottom?
15 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Yes.
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, you made a partial strategic withdrawal, as it were.
17 MR IRVING:     A strategic withdrawal, was it, not an appropriate
18correction?
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let the witness finish his answer,
20Mr Irving.
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I will read these two sentences from page 379, if I may.
22"According to one army colonel who witnessed it, a train
23load of Jews from Berlin -- those expelled three days
24before -- arrived in the midst of this; Aktion, this
25killing of the Riga Jews. Its passengers were taken
26straight out to the pits and shot. This happened even as

.   P-63



 1Hitler, hundreds of miles away in the Wolf's Lair, was
 2instructing Himmler that these Berlin Jews were not to be
 3liquidated.".
 4     So you accept in that text that it refers to a
 5single train load of Jews, but you still maintain the
 6falsehood that it was Hitler who ordered it, with no
 7evidence whatsoever.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you now answer the question, which is, was this the
 9appropriate correction to the matter of one train load as
10opposed to transportation?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. In that respect, it most certainly was.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you agree with me that historians or writers or
13scholars sometimes differ on the inference they draw from
14identical documents, that you will have one reading on it
15from your political standpoint and I will have another
16reading on it from mine?
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We are now going back to what I have said we
18must leave.
19 MR IRVING:     Well, we now move on to the document of December
201st. I now want you to look at the handwritten page,
21please. Can I ask the witness please also to look at the
22original photocopy? That was the one from which
23I worked. Near the bottom there is a telephone
24conversation. You assume in your expert report that
25Himmler telephoned General Pohl, but in fact all we know
26is that there was a conversation. Is that right?

.   P-64



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. As I say, I have revised my views of that as a
 2result of your pointing this out.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     It refers at one point to "Verwaltungsfuhrer der SS haben
 4zu bleiben". Those two phrases are on two separate lines,
 5is that right?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right, yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     The words "haben zu bleiben" are pretty indistinct or
 8could you read it easily?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Of course, I have read this so often now, it is very
10difficult to say what I would see on first coming to it.
11The word "haben" is very distinct, it is very clear. "Zu"
12is pretty readable. The "bleiben" is a little less good,
13and the "SS" in the previous line is cut off by the edge
14of the page. But, on the whole, it is pretty readable.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is not Latin handwriting, is it? Do you know the
16name for this German handwriting that is used?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Italene. I am very familiar with it.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     You are very familiar with it now, or as a result of
19having worked on it for many years?
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think it really matters.
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have worked on it for many years, Mr Irving.
22I published an edition of documents written in it.
23 MR IRVING:     You agree that not many modern Germans can even
24read that handwriting, can they? No, that is true.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     So it is a difficult handwriting to read?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No. Well, it depends. As an actual style of handwriting

.   P-65



 1you have to learn it. I train my PhD students in it. It
 2does not take more than a few weeks and a little bit of
 3practice.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     And you are going to say that it is totally impossible for
 5any reader reading that line for the first time without
 6the benefit of what I would call cheats, in other words
 7printed versions of the document, to mistake in that
 8ancient German handwriting "H A B E N" for "J U D E N"?
 9Is that going to be your answer?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. I think you have to read this carefully. You thread
11your way through it. When you are reading handwriting, if
12you find something difficult to read or ambiguous, you
13then search for other similar letters, the same letter in
14other words in the same hand to try and figure out what
15that particular hand's version of a B or a D or an E or a
16U actually looks like. What we are dealing with here is
17your claim that that says, "Juden zu bleiben" or, as you
18say in Hitler's War in 1977, Himmler telephoned Paul with
19the order that Jews are to stay where they are. Whereas
20in fact it is "Verwaltungsfuhrer der SS haben zu bleiben",
21it is the administrative offices of the SS have to stay.
22     From this text there are a number of indications
23which somebody who was not biased and looking for some
24evidence to the contrary, that is say an objective
25historian, that this is "haben zu bleiben". First of all,
26the fact that it is indented, the second line "haben

.   P-66



 1zu bleiben" does suggest that it runs on from the first
 2line. The new entries here begin right next to the middle
 3of the page. They are not indented. Secondly, this
 4writer, as is common in this handwriting, generally puts a
 5kind of what you might call a little inverted circumflex
 6over a U.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Invariably or generally?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Generally. Obviously, this is written in some haste.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     So that is not the clue then?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is a general tendency and you can see that above
11"Besuch" with a little thing over the U.
12"Fliegermeldungen" is another one there at the top.
13There is another one over the U. So that is the general
14habit of this writer.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     But not invariable?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, you take that from -- that is one of a number of
17indications. That is the second one. Then you compare Bs
18and Ds. You can see, when you compare the B of "bleiben"
19with a B, or if that B in "haben" is a D, making it
20"Juden", then you look for another D to see whether that
21is the way the writer writes, and so on and so forth. I
22think we have been through this at some length in
23cross-examination.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     You are going through it at some length, but can I now ask
25you a simple question? You have gone through this at some
26length. Does that indicate it is quite difficult to read

.   P-67



 1words like this?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It was a conditional. I said, if you are having
 3difficulty, if you are finding it a problem, then that is
 4what you do as an objective historian. Myself, I think it
 5is very clear from this.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Of course, if you came to the conclusion that it was
 7reasonable, if you privately came to the conclusion it was
 8a reasonable kind of mistake to make when one is reading
 9that document for the first time, you would immediately
10tell the court, would you not?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes I would.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     You would have no hesitation in saying to the court that,
13yes, this is a reasonable mistake for David Irving to
14make. Although I do not like him, on this occasion I will
15say this is quite right. You would do that, would you
16not?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not dislike you, Mr Irving. I have no personal
18feelings at all. But I do not think this is a reasonable
19mistake to make.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can I ask you two questions actually, one is
22I cannot remember what "Verwaltungsfuhrer" is.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Administrative officers or leaders -- Administrative
24leaders.
25 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     And the other is the extent of the textual analysis of the
26kind you have just described that you undertake depends in

.   P-68



 1a way on the significance of the document. I mean, some
 2documents you really are not going to spend ages trying to
 3work out. Is this a sufficiently significant document for
 4it to be reasonable to expect an objective historian to
 5undertake the sort of exercise that you just been
 6describing?
 7 MR IRVING:     My Lord, that is precisely question I was going to
 8ask.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have asked it for you.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The significance that Mr Irving places upon it does
11require that, that is to say, when it says in Hitler's War
12that Himmler telephoned SS General Oswald Pohl with the
13order that Jews are to stay where they are. That is quite
14a significant statement and it, therefore, does require
15that kind of textual analysis. Normally, when you are --
16it is kind of the lowest form of historical imagination,
17as it were, when you find handwriting difficult and you do
18this. You can do it fairly quickly, in my view, with this
19particular...
20 MR IRVING:     Have you done this kind of textual analysis with
21every single document you looked at, Professor? Does it
22take you very long to write your books?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I mean, of course I do this with documents, yes, when
24I am reading through them.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     You look at a letters, you look at little caps over the
26Us, you look to see if it is a B or a D? You do this with

.   P-69



 1every word you read, do you?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. You get used to a certain hand and if it is -- if
 3you find difficulty in reading a word, as one frequently
 4does, then that is exactly what you do. I published an
 5edition of 350 handwritten police reports, as you know,
 6and they were quite difficult to read. I frequently had
 7to engage in this kind of exercise if they are written in
 8different hands by policemen who only had a very
 9elementary education.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     But it would be normal if somebody came to you and pointed
11out and said, "Oh, I don't think this word is this, that
12word is probably that", then you would do that kind of
13textual analysis, but you would not necessarily do it with
14every word before you came up against that particular ----
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, you would do it with words that were significant or
16difficult to read. I mean, normally, as I say, you get
17used to a hand and if you are reading through this, this
18is not a particularly difficult example of this particular
19script, in fact.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     There are two obvious corollaries to the questions which I
21have to ask. The first question is, in your opinion, did
22I deliberately make this reading in order to serve my
23political bias? Was it deliberately perverse reading or
24was it an inadvertent misreading?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think it is a deliberately perverse misreading.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     In other words, I knew the correct meaning and

.   P-70



 1I deliberately chose the other one? That is what the word
 2"deliberate" means.
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     In other words, I knew it was "haben" but I deliberately
 5wrote it as "Juden" and I hoped nobody would look at the
 6original document, is that right
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, it is quite clear from this that it is "haben". I
 8find it very difficult to think ----
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Not, that is not what I am asking. You are saying,
10"I knew that it was wrong and I deliberately wrote the
11wrong word"?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, we are getting a bit into psychology here. I mean,
13as it, I am trying to second guess your thought processes
14here, but I think you wanted to find a statement like
15this, and when you found what you thought was a statement
16like that, you just said, "Hooray" and you did not care to
17look at it any closer. You misread this. You were
18mislead by your overwhelming desire to exculpate the Nazi
19leadership into misreading this as "Juden" instead of
20"haben"; whereas to any objective historian, taking even
21a minimal amount of care about reading this, it was very
22easy to establish that this meant "Verwaltungsfuhrer der
23SS haben zu bleiben". To that extent, therefore, I think
24you deliberately misused and abused this text.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I just explain to you the meaning of the word
26"deliberate"? "Deliberate" means, and I am sure my Lord

.   P-71



 1will correct me if I am wrong, I knew that the word was
 2"haben" and I deliberately wrote "Juden" in order to
 3serve a political end, is that what you are saying?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am saying that it is very obviously that this word
 5is ----
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is not the answer.
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- "haben"; that any objective historian reading this
 8would have very little difficulty in establishing this as
 9"haben", and you put it as "Juden zu bleiben" which
10itself is grammatically an extremely peculiar phrase which
11should alert anybody to the fact that it is not likely to
12be what you say it is. You wanted it to read "Juden
13zu bleiben" and you made it read "Juden zu bleiben". That
14is what I am saying.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     So your submission to the court is that I knew it read
16"haben" and I deliberately wrote "Juden"? I have to keep
17asking this. Will you give a simple yes or no to that
18question?
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think you got an answer "yes".
20 MR IRVING:     The answer is yes?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
22 MR IRVING:     Thank you very much, my Lord. Now, the obvious
23corollary to that is, if that sentence is taken out of the
24book, does that in the slightest change the thrust of that
25paragraph? In other words, was there any reason why the
26sentence should have been put in?

.   P-72



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Let me have a look at the paragraph, please. This is
 2Hitler's war, 1977 edition.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. My Lord, this goes to the importance of the whole
 4matter really. If the answer is that it can be taken out
 5without changing the meaning, then the last 10 minutes
 6have been largely wasted.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, I do not think that is right at all. So
 8that you know why I do not think that is right, I will
 9tell you reason and it is simply this, Mr Irving, that you
10might be able to say in relation perhaps even to every one
11of the passages that are criticised, "Well, by itself,
12that does not amount to much", but I think the Defendants'
13case, just so that you know what I am understanding it to
14be, is that if you put them all together, then they are of
15significance. I think that is the way it is put. I am
16not saying for a moment I accept it but ----
17 MR IRVING:     Then we would have to look at the word "all" and
18see what "all" is.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, of course.
20 MR IRVING:     Are we just going to look at three sentences and
21pick two that are adjacent where two flaws have been made
22or are we going to look at the whole book?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Right, yes. Well, the paragraph ----
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Page?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Page 332 in the edition that I have, my Lord, Hitler's War
261977, and it consists of an accumulation of falsifications

.   P-73



 1of documentary evidence of which this is one.
 2 MR IRVING:     Do you agree that the sentence complained of was
 3cut out of the following edition?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Could I have a look at the following edition, please?
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Or was it cut out of the Goebbels biography?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Which do you want me to look at, Mr Irving?
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Let us look at the Goebbels biography.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     It is at page 427 of the 1991 edition of Hitler's
 9War, I think.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Right. Let us have a look at that first. Page 427?
11 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, 427 at the bottom. I think it is there
12actually. I do not think it is cut out at all.
13 MR IRVING:     Well, that is why I suggested the Goebbels book
14instead because the ----
15 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, I have no doubt that is why.
16 MR IRVING:     Well, obviously, the error was pointed out to me
17relatively later on.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, it is exactly the same, I think.
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Exactly the same -- I will take your word for it, my Lord.
20 MR IRVING:     Professor Evans, do you agree that the error was
21rectified in the Goebbels biography in the corresponding
22passage?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Where is this? Page, please?
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     377 approximately, is it not.
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Page.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     377?

.   P-74



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     377 again.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not sure about that.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     I think it is 379 actually, I think it is.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is right.
 5 THE WITNESS:     That is rather difficult but, presumably, we are
 6looking for a lack of any mention.
 7 MR IRVING:     That is right but, in other words ----
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It has gone altogether, has it? Yes.
 9 MR IRVING:     --- it has gone altogether?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     But, see, you are essentially lifting paragraphs from
11Hitler's War and putting them into Goebbels, but changing
12them slightly.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am relying on a reliable source, namely Hitler's War,
14when I write the Goebbels biography. Do you agree, to
15answer my question, that I took the appropriate action
16when the error was pointed out to me and that I excised it
17from all future editions of the work?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Can you give me some evidence to show when the error was
19pointed out to you? I think it was pointed out -- was
20this one of the ones pointed out by Professor Bruchsal or
21not? That is not really the issue, is it, though?
22 MR RAMPTON:     I believe the evidence of Mr Irving was in
23cross-examination that this error was pointed out to him
24some time in the early 1980s, I think by Eberhard Jaeckel,
25but I am not sure.----
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am afraid I had forgotten that.

.   P-75



 1 MR RAMPTON:     Which is why he retranscribed it in the
 2typewritten version that we have in J3 at page 13 --
 3sorry, J1, tab 3, page 13. I think his evidence was that
 4he retranscribed the word "haben" from "Juden" on a
 5typewriter which I think he said he had thrown away over
 615 or 20 years ago.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So, mid 80s?
 8 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, I think it is early to mid 80s. I am open to
 9correction. That was done entirely from memory, but I
10think that is what the evidence was about it.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can you remember, Mr Irving, as a matter
12of ----
13 MR IRVING:     Well, unfortunately, the mid 80s would be a crucial
14date because mid 80s is when the second edition went to
15press.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What, the 1991 edition? It could not have
17been six years, could it?
18 MR IRVING:     Books of this size are in the gestation period a
19long time, and I sent it off to be edited down and cut
20down and trimmed, and the first edition was 1975.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     '77.
22 MR IRVING:     Well, the German edition was 1975, my Lord. 1977
23was the first English edition which means that it was
24actually finished in 1974. So it is not an easy kind of
25question to answer, that. So I think that is why it is
26more sensible to look at Goebbels and say it is quite

.   P-76



 1simply ----
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, it has gone from Goebbels.
 3 MR IRVING:     It has gone from Goebbels ----
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- and everybody accepts that.
 5 MR IRVING:     --- so the appropriate action was taken.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not accept that, Mr Irving. I would need to know
 8exactly when you -- when this was pointed out to you.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     You do not accept that it went from Goebbels.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, no. I do not accept that the appropriate action was
11taken as soon as it was pointed to you, but in any case
12that is not really what we are talking about. The point
13is that it was in your books in the first place.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, so to summarize your evidence, your evidence is that
15the reading of "haben" in old German handwriting as
16"Juden" was a totally perverse and deliberate action
17I took in order to exonerate Adolf Hitler?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     And that, in your opinion, therefore, even when you are
20confronted with the original faded photocopy that I had
21before me, and not the printed volume that scholars now
22use, this was not a permissible misreading?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I think anybody who reads the German handwriting and
24approaches this with any degree of objectivity can see
25that it says "Verwaltungsfuhrer der SS haben zu bleiben".
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     This kind of handwriting is pretty easy to read, is it? I

.   P-77



 1mean, any historian can read it?
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Have we not really had that question asked
 3and answered?
 4 MR IRVING:     Well, I was going to ask one obvious follow up, and
 5that is if it so easy to read, why was it not until I used
 6it that it was ever used?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not dispute the fact that you were the first person
 8to read a number of documents. The point is, Mr Irving,
 9the misuse you make of them when you do read them.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is your contention that that was a sufficiently important
11sentence in that paragraph that its removal makes no
12difference to the thrust of my arguments?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think you have that sentence the wrong way round.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     In other words that ----
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Could you remind me of the page again? I foolishly shut
16the book.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Let us move on. We will move on then, for heaven's sake.
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think its removal does weaken the paragraph, yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you turn to page 357 of your expert report, please?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Do I need this bundle still? Sorry, let me just clear the
21decks again.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     You are accusing me of further ----
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Have we finished with this? Well, I will keep that.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     No, you will not, I will have it. It is mine.
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You have it back, yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Professor Evans, you accused me of further

.   P-78



 1misrepresentations and omissions in connection with the
 2Bruns Report and the subsequent events. Page 357 of your
 3report.
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     The specific omission you accuse me of is not making use
 6of or not referring to a document, a letter, written by,
 7if you look at page 359, paragraph 6, a man called
 8Schulz-Du Bois?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     You do. You say: "However, he makes no mention of the
11letter's contents"?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is not the specific -- I mean, I make a number of
13points about this, but that is one of them, yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     One objection you make to my use of the Bruns document is
15that I rely on the fact that after these German Army
16officers saw what was going on, the SS shooting Jews on
17that morning November, 30th 1941, they discussed among
18themselves who was going to bring it to Hitler's
19attention, is that right?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Where is that?
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     According to General Bruns? I am telling you what is in
22the report.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Right. Can you just point me to the paragraph and where
24I say that?
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am telling you what is in the report and we have had
26this evidence before the court.

.   P-79



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     In my report?
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     In the report by General (as he became) Bruns.
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am looking in my report for where I make this
 4allegation.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Paragraph 1 on page 357 is your reference to it.
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     "Irving relies on Walter Bruns as the source for his claim
 8that a report about the killings in Riga eventually
 9reached Hitler's headquarters". Does that refresh your
10memory?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. It quotes: "Hitler seemingly intervened at once to
12order a halt to 'diese Massenerschiessungen' (these mass
13shootings)" ----
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can we take this stage by stage?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- "as soon as a report, signed by a junior officer, was
16forwarded to him".
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you be responsive to the questions I am asking?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is what you say.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you read the Bruns Report?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does the Bruns Report describe how the Army officers who
22witnessed these atrocities discussed among themselves how
23to bring it to Hitler's attention?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. Do we have a copy of that?
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, we must look at it.
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     We must look at it, yes.

.   P-80



 1 MR RAMPTON:     It is a very bad copy, I am afraid. It is J1, tab
 24, my Lord. It is very difficult to read.
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Do we have a page number?
 4 MR RAMPTON:     It is the beginning of tab 4.
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, of course, that is right.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     So it is a wartime copy document.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Right.
 9 MR IRVING:     Have you found the passage towards the end of the
10report where they are discussing, the question was who was
11going to bring it to the Fuhrer's attention?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right, yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you agree that Colonel Bruns at that time was a senior
14German Army Engineer Officer in Riga?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     At the time he is referring to, yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     At the time he is referring to, but at the time of this
17conversation that the British have overheard he is a Major
18General ----
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- in British captivity?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right. It is, whatever you call it, a spying, a
22record made by the British without the Germans, the
23captives, knowing that it was being made.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     What kind of reliance would you place on a report like
25this on the British intercept, if I can call it that, of
26an overheard conversation? Is it liable to be dependable,

.   P-81



 1used with caution, with proper circumspect?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     One should use all documents with proper circumspect and
 3caution, but it is certainly, since they do not seem to
 4have been aware that they were being recorded, it does
 5seem to be quite reliable.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     There might be a tendency to brag a bit or possibly even
 7to conceal things they had a guilty conscious about?
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think you got your answer "yes" is the
 9answer.
10 MR IRVING:     The reason I am about to ask this is to say how
11would this compare with the testimony given by somebody in
12the witness box at Nuremberg, the same person? Would it
13be more reliable or less reliable?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That would -- I mean, one has to take all these things
15individually and actually look at them. One would be
16perhaps a little more suspicious at the testimony in the
17witness box at Nuremberg, but one would have to take these
18things on their merits.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Having read the Bruns Report or scanned it, would you
20agree that he is describing something he actually
21witnessed, the shooting of these people at the pits, the
22girl with the flame red dress ----
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     "I see her in my mind's eye even now"?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     The same General Bruns in 1948, did he not deny that he

.   P-82



 1had witnessed these things? He said in the witness box
 2under oath that, yes, he had received reports on it and he
 3had sent people out to see what was going on?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Right.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     So, in fact, there are distinctions between the calibre of
 6evidence? Sometimes ----
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think the witness has accepted that
 8already.
 9 MR IRVING:     Yes.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. I mean, clearly here he did not think he was
11implicating himself because he thought he was talking in
12private, whereas in the witness box he was very careful
13about making any admissions.
14 MR IRVING:     So used with proper caution, a document like this
15CSDIC report is a valuable source?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     What kind of cautions were then used about what one
18accepts? Should one be careful about hearsay where they
19are reporting what B has said to C, or is there any other
20kind of caution you would apply?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, cautious in every -- I mean, you take it on its
22merits.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     A self-serving statement you would be cautious about?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     If it is obviously self-serving, yes, but, as I say, it is
25less likely to be self-serving in these circumstances than
26it is in the witness box.

.   P-83



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you familiar with these CSDIC reports? Have you
 2worked with them in any detail?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have not, no.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     You have not?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     There is something like 50,000 pages of these overheard
 7conversations with top Nazis and you never used them?
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, come on, Mr Irving, is that helpful?
 9 MR IRVING:     Page 359 -- I am sorry, we had better have a look
10at page 358 at paragraph 3. What happened to the report
11that went up to Hitler, that was finally sent up to
12Hitler? How did it go, do you know?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You tell me, Mr Irving.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it right that the report was drafted by a junior Army
15officer was sent up through what one can call Army
16channels and then across to intelligent channels to
17Admiral Canaris?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That seems to be the case, according to the Schulz-Du Bois
19document, yes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     When Schulz-Du Bois refers in his letter, which was,
21apparently, written in January 1942, is that right?
22I referred you to paragraph 6.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, yes, it is certainly uncertain. I mean, his wife
24dated it to January '42, yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, Schulz-Du Bois did not survive the war?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right, yes.

.   P-84



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     On the foot of page 359, you say the report had been
 2forwarded to the top counter-espionage official. Is that
 3a reference to Admiral Canaris?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I presume it is, yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you consider a statement made by Admiral Canaris as
 6against Adolf Hitler to be dependable or not? In other
 7words, if he had made a statement that was critical of
 8Adolf Hitler, would that be dependable?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Those are two different questions.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     The second question.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Again, one does regard this in the same way as other
12sources. I mean, this is ----
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was Adolf Hitler a member of the anti-Hitler resistance?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You mean was Canaris?
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am sorry. Was Admiral Canaris -- a Freudian slip -- was
16a member of the anti-Hitler resistance and was he hanged
17for this on April 8th 1945?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     He was indeed, yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     So a statement made by Admiral Canaris to the disadvantage
20of the Fuhrer should be viewed circumspectly, should it?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, no more circumspectly, I mean, than those of other
22members of the resistance or any other source. One takes
23all these things on their own merits. I do not think you
24can simply discredit what members of the resistance said
25about Hitler simply because they were critical of him.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Not necessarily untrue but ----

.   P-85



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Though you would like to discredit everything that is
 2critical that is said about Hitler.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     In other words, a statement made by Canaris would not
 4necessarily be untrue ----
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- but you might want to have a document to back it up,
 7another document, a second source?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I think you have to make it clear that Canaris is who
 9he is.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     At the top of the following page, of course, you quote
11then what information came back from Canaris.
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     "This man", Canaris, "who has constant access to the
14Fuhrer is said to have described the consequences and the
15terrible nature of these methods, namely the killings, to
16the F", Hitler, "once more compellingly" ----
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- "whereupon he", Hitler, "is said to have said, 'You
19want to show weakness, do you, Mein Herr, I have to do
20that for after me there will not be another one to do it".
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     In other words, "I had to do the killings".
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     And this is Canaris' statement about what Hitler's
25response to him was?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.

.   P-86



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     And is the fact that the channel of information that it
 2comes through Admiral Canaris not sufficient to make one
 3want possibly to quote that reference, but add a caveat at
 4the end and say, "Well, of course, Admiral Canaris may
 5have been reporting something genuinely, but it has to be
 6borne in mind that he was later hanged as a member of the
 7anti-Hitler resistance"?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, I do not -- I mean, I do not think that it
 9necessarily disproves it. I mean, the crucial thing
10really is that this, this is obviously a second-hand
11evidence and one has to make that clear, but I do not
12think, as I say, you should discredit, or I do not think
13you should say that I think it is unlikely that people who
14disapproved of Hitler and his methods simply made up
15things about him. I think the members of the German
16resistance were honourable men.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Are you aware of the fact that I have large parts of
18the private diary and official diary of Admiral Canaris
19and his second-in-command, Colonel Naruzon, also? They
20both kept diaries and I have parts of the Canaris diary
21which were in British Cabinet Office files right up to
22June 1943, covering this period, in other words?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You mean they are in British Cabinet Office files?
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So what? What is the significance of that?
26 MR IRVING:     I was going to ask in the best way I can that if

.   P-87



 1there is no reference to any such remark by Adolf Hitler
 2in that diary, would that be one reason, if this
 3information had been before me at any time?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Too many "ifs" there; I would have to see the diary with
 5dates, but it does say here that he is, that he has said
 6to have described the consequences ----
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- whereupon Hitler is said to have said, so it is
 9clear. I mean, it is an important piece of evidence, but
10it is very indirect and I think one has to make that
11clear.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     So there are two parts of that statement, that he made the
13report to Hitler which is probably credible because that
14is why the report had been sent to him?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Whereupon, and this is the second part of the statement,
17Hitler is said to have said something?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     And then at some point in time, two or three days later
20about, a message comes back out to Riga saying, "These
21shootings have to stop. These kind of mass killings, mass
22shootings have to stop". This is the first part. I know
23we will come to the part you want to come to next.
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     We have to be clear about the dates here.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Sometime after 30th November 1941?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right.

.   P-88



 1 MR IRVING:     Sometime after 30th November?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     January '42 being the letter. So we do not know exactly
 3when this actually happened. It is a piece of supporting
 4evidence for what is in the Bruns document.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you look at the end of the Bruns Report where Bruns
 6describes going back at some time to see the man he refers
 7to as Altenmeyer, but in fact his name was Altemeyer ----
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- a 23 year-old SS gangster who was the big top brass on
10the spot. Altemeyer says, "We have received this new
11order saying that this kind of mass shootings have to
12stop", and then he adds a sneering comment afterwards
13which we will come to in a minute?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, yes.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think perhaps one ought to read the whole
16of what is quoted?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     One should read the whole thing.
18 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I do want to take this in two parts, if I
19may?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It would help, I think, if I read the whole thing.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think you should.
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     "Altenmeyer triumphantly shows me, 'Here's an order that
23has come that saying that mass shootings of this kind may
24no longer take place in the future. That is to be done
25more cautiously or discreetly".
26 MR IRVING:     Shall we take the first part of that first? If

.   P-89



 1this order has come, that this kind of mass shootings have
 2got to stop, what does your supposition about whether,
 3knowing what you now do about the report that went up from
 4Canaris, through Canaris to the "F", to the Fuhrer, and
 5that back comes this order saying, "This kind of mass
 6shootings has got to stop", can you draw any conclusions
 7from that?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, it would seem likely that the order derived from
 9Hitler.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     And is there any connection at all, do you think, with the
11police decodes we looked at yesterday from Himmler,
12December 1st 1941, where he orders Jaeckel straight to
13Fuhrer's Headquarters on December 4th and there is a
14meeting between the two of them on December 4th, "These
15arbitrary measures have got to stop. You have got to
16stick to the guidelines. I will severely punish actions
17like this." Do you see any connection between all this?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, Himmler's meeting with Jaeckel was in his own
19headquarters.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you see any connection with this kind of general chain
21of events, that killings were going on and they stopped,
22that there are orders that these mass shootings have got
23to stop and there are reports to Hitler? Do you see, does
24your brain -- I know it is difficult for you to grapple
25with totally new concepts, but here is this matter. We
26are trying to work out who possibly may have ordered,

.   P-90



 1"These kinds of mass shootings have to stop"?
 2 MR RAMPTON:     Well, I am sorry, that just ----
 3 MR IRVING:     Mr Rampton, I do wish you would stop interrupting
 4every time we are doing something.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     Counsel, I am afraid, as his Lordship will tell
 6Mr Irving, has a right to intervene when the
 7cross-examination is proceeding on a false and time
 8wasting basis. He has a duty to the court and to his
 9client and to the witness. It is not possible for that
10question to be answered as though the second sentence did
11not exist, in my submission.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have well in mind the whole of it, and
13I think one has to take the whole of it in end, Mr Irving.
14 MR IRVING:     My Lord, we are very definitely going to come to
15the second sentence, but I do respectfully submit that
16I am taking this in the proper sequence, and we will give
17each part of that second sentence the weight that it
18deserves.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, you see, I do not really see that you
20can do that. If by taking half the sentence you really
21significantly distort the sense of the whole of it, it
22seems to me the question is being asked on something of a
23false premise.
24 MR RAMPTON:     Yes.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is the difficulty. I think what you
26ought to do, if I may suggest it, is proceed the other way

.   P-91



 1round, as it were, and deal with the latter part of it,
 2namely that the shootings are to be carried out more
 3discreetly, and put your case.
 4 MR IRVING:     If that will make my case more comprehensible to
 5your Lordship, I will willingly do that.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I know what it is because you have just
 7mentioned it. I think that is the right way of doing it,
 8if I may say so, and it meets Mr Rampton's objection.
 9 MR IRVING:     I appreciate why Mr Rampton keeps on interrupting
10and it is now becoming statistically evident that every
11time I am about to make what I consider to be an important
12point ----
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If I thought he were doing that, I would tell
14him to desist.
15 MR IRVING:     Because it does seriously disrupt the flow of
16cross-examination when this occurs.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, do not let it disrupt it any more.
18 MR IRVING:     Professor Evans, I referred just now to the message
19decoded on December 1st. There were, in fact, three
20messages, the first one on the morning of December 1st was
21from Jaeckel to Himmler saying: "I need to have six more
22tommy guns". Can you accept that as being the fact? We
23have seen them in court.
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     The next one from Himmler's staff to Jaeckel later on
26December 1st says: "You are to report back to the

.   P-92



 1Fuhrer".
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     "And tell us what means of travel your are adopting".
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Report back, not to the Fuhrer.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     And the second message is signed by Himmler himself, with
 6what I aver is greater urgency, saying: "This kind of
 7arbitrary action has exceeded the guidelines"----
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, it says: "Arbitrary actions".
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     "Arbitrary actions" ----
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It does not say: "This kind of arbitrary action", does
11it?
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     I do not want to ----
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     "Eigenmachtigkeiten und zuwieder Handlungen," or
14something.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     "Und zuwieder Handlungen werden strengsens bestraft".
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, exactly.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is this not an indication that the shootings were done in
18disfavour at one of the highest levels, if I can put it
19like that?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, this relates to the shooting of the transport from
21Berlin by Jaeckel which ----
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Now we are coming to ----
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Which Himmler, on 30th November, Himmler and Heydrich
24clearly wanted to be stopped and did not get to on time.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Now we are coming to the point which his Lordship attaches
26importance. Is there any hint in these messages that went

.   P-93



 1from one of these highest levels out to Jaeckel, that
 2shootings could continue provided they were done in
 3surreptitious way?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The reference in those clearly refers to Jews who were
 5transported from Berlin. It clearly relates to the
 6trainload that came on 30th November and was shot, and it
 7quite clearly relates to the shooting of Jews who were
 8transported from Germany. Himmler and Heydrich wanted it
 9to stop and, indeed, it does stop. What the Bruns
10document says is, in effect, that mass shootings must
11continue but more discreetly. They do not ----
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can we remain with the hard evidence which is the decodes,
13please.
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am sorry, the hard evidence is, "here is an order that
15has come saying that mass shootings of this kind" ----
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     No, we are referring to the decodes.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- "may no longer take place in the future. That is to be
18done more cautiously".
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Which is?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You interpret that as saying Hitler seemingly intervened
21at once to order a "halt zu diese Masseneschiessungen" --
22these mass shootings -- whereas the word actually says:
23"Der artige Masseneschiessung" -- this kind of mass
24shooting, and you leave out the sentence about this having
25to be done more cautiously.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     If I can halt the flow of words for one moment ----

.   P-94



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     What Bruns is talking about is an order to continue them
 2more discreetly, and you are presenting this as an order
 3to stop them altogether. Indeed, what we know is that
 4four days after Jaeckel was given his dressing down by
 5Himmler about the shooting of transports from Berlin, the
 6rest of the Riga ghetto of local Jews was shot by Jaeckel.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     I hesitate to halt this kind of flow of verbiage, but I
 8have to.
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     So presumably, Himmler must have therefore discussed with
10Jaeckel the shootings of the Jews in Riga.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can we try and keep to the point. You referred to the
12hard evidence, which is the harder kind of evidence,
13decoded messages intercepted on the same day in real time
14by the British, of which the SS have no knowledge that we
15are decoding them whatsoever and which have been in the
16British archives ever since then, or something said at
17second or third hand by a German Army General four years
18later? Which is the hard evidence, in your view?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Hard evidence of what?
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can we look at the documents. It is all so
21unsatisfactory. Are we talking about J1 tab 3, page 17 or
22some other document? If you want me to follow it, you are
23going to have to tell me which document you are talking
24about.
25 MR IRVING:     I am referring to the police decodes of December
261st, 1941, on the one hand, and the Bruns document of

.   P-95



 1April 1945, on the other?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Let us have a look. Let me see this decode.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I know about the Bruns document. This simply
 4refers to guidelines, does it not?
 5 MR IRVING:     The simple question that I have asked first of all
 6is ----
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Could you refer me to the decode, please.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     In the witness's opinion ----
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think it is J1 tab 3, page 17.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Page 17.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I may be completely wrong, but I do need to
12be anchored to a document.
13 MR IRVING:     I agree, my Lord, and that has narrowed it down
14these two documents.
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The decode says: "The Jews being out-placed to the
16Ostland are to be" ----
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you answer my question first, please?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I just want to read this document that you are referring
19to.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let him read it out. You see, he is just
21reminding himself of what it says, Mr Irving. Just
22because you do not want to listen to some of what is given
23by way of an answer, you must not prevent him.
24 MR IRVING:     We will get to his content later, but I must ask
25him which class of information he considers to be harder
26and he will not answer this.

.   P-96



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Evidence is evidence of something; otherwise, it is just a
 2document.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Just read out the bit and then say what you
 4are wanting to say.
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     "The Jews being out-placed" [this is an order from Himmler
 6to Jackeln decoded by British on
 71st December]. "The Jews being out-placed to Ostland are
 8to be dealt with only in accordance with the guidelines
 9laid down by myself and/or by the
10Reichssicherheitshauptamt on my orders. I would punish
11arbitrary and disobedient acts. (Sgd. H HIMMLER)". That
12refers to the Jews being placed, being transported from
13Germany, particularly Berlin.
14 MR IRVING:     Professor Evans, you do not have to know the
15content of a message to be able to answer the simple
16question, in your opinion as a historian and as a person
17who has written books on historiography, which kind of
18evidence is harder, in other words, more dependable as a
19primary source, something which is recorded at the time,
20in real time by British interceptors of decodes, on the
21one hand, or something reported at third hand in captivity
22by a German Army general four years later?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     As a general rule, of course, it is the first. That does
24not mean to say you discredit the second altogether.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     I agree entirely, but you have to attach the appropriate
26weight to each of those sources in the absence of any

.   P-97



 1other support.
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Right. So, our only information of what Altemeyer said,
 4that it has to be done more surreptitiously in future -
 5or whatever word he used more furtively - out of the
 6public eye, is a third-hand report by Bruns as overheard
 7by the British in April 1945?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, but he also says, Mr Irving (the previous sentence):
 9"Here is an order that has come saying that mass
10shootings of this kind may no longer take place in the
11future, that to be done more cautiously". You cannot say
12that the second sentence is unreliable but the first is.
13In your work, you make use of the first. You not only
14make use of the first sentence, you know now that you are
15just trying to discredit what Bruns says. You actually
16manipulate and distort it by talking about these mass
17shootings, instead of saying it is mass shootings of this
18particular kind.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     What is the difference between the words: "These mass
20shootings" and "mass shootings of this kind".
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is quite clear. "These mass shootings" refers to all
22mass shootings, whereas "mass shootings of this kind"
23refers to ones which are indiscreet. You gather that,
24from me, you are incautious. You gather that, from the
25second sentence, that two sentences belong together.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did you agree that the reference in the first part of the

.   P-98



 1statement by Altemeyer, that: "We have received orders
 2from above that mass shootings" (let me put it like that)
 3"are to stop", is a clear reference to the kind of signal
 4contained in the decode?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You are trying to ----
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     And that therefore one has hard evidence supporting that
 7part of his the statement, right?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Not necessarily, because you are talking about the decode
 9that relates to transports from Berlin, whereas really
10----
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am missing something, Professor Evans, can
12you help me?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The decode is said by Mr Irving to be hard
15evidence and obviously one understands why he says that.
16But hard evidence of what, because all that seems to me to
17say is that the Jews, as you say from Berlin, are to be
18dealt with in accordance with guidelines, but we do not
19know what the guidelines are. So I do not quite see what
20it is hard evidence of. Am I missing something?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not think so, my Lord, no.
22 MR IRVING:     Will you read that signal out in full in a clear
23voice so that the court can hear it, please? The one
24talking about arbitrary acts and acts against the
25guidelines.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not frankly think it is necessary. It

.   P-99



 1has just been read, it was read yesterday and today. What
 2is the point pout of reading it again?
 3 MR IRVING:     Because it make clear reference to the fact that
 4these shootings have found disfavour higher up and future
 5such actions will be severely punished, and he
 6simultaneously orders the man who does done it to come to
 7his headquarters?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, it does not. It says: "The Jews being out-placed to
 9the Ostland are to be dealt with only in accordance with
10the guidelines laid down by myself and/or by the
11Reichssicherheitshauptamt on my orders. I would punish
12arbitrary and disobedient acts". So if you took that,
13that could mean that they are only to be shot if Himmler
14says they are to be shot.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     It could mean anything, could it not? It could mean that
16they were going to be sent to Butlin's Holiday Camp, but
17we are going to use common sense here, are we not?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not think it could mean that, Mr Irving.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     We are going to use common sense here where it says that
20there has been a mass shooting that very previous day
21which has been reported to Hitler's headquarters; the
22words come up the grapevine; now the fat has hit the fan,
23to put it that way, and heads are going to roll and this
24has got to stop. I am going to punish this kind of thing
25in the future. Come immediately to headquarters, which
26then happens. And this the common sense sequence of

.   P-100



 1events and we have back out in the fields, so to speak,
 2Bruns hearing then down the grapevine, as he says a few
 3days later - that is the word he uses. He goes to see
 4Altemeyer, the one who set the mass executions rolling at
 5the lower level, and he says that we have got this order
 6now from on top. The top brass has said that these mass
 7shootings have got to stop. But they are going to carry
 8on anyway, right? Is that the way it was done?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I am sorry, let us look at this decode. "The
10guidelines laid down by myself and/or the
11Reichssicherheitshauptamt" could easily say something
12about doing it cautiously or discreetly.
13 MR IRVING:     They could, indeed.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I really think, Mr Irving, that we have he
15batted this one backwards and forwards enough.
16 MR IRVING:     Indeed, and we have, I think, discovered what the
17harder of the evidence is, and why there are reasons why
18one is entitled to discount, if I may put it this way, my
19Lord, in the mildest possible way, the second part of that
20sentence for we have no supporting evidence.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, you say that the first half of it is
22reliable because of the circumstances under which was
23provided then it was eavesdropped upon.
24 MR IRVING:     And the consequences that flowed from it.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is reliable but second half is
26unreliable.

.   P-101



 1 MR IRVING:     The second part is less reliable, if I may put it
 2like that. Professor Evans, are you suggesting that the
 3letter of de Bois was in front of me at any time when
 4I wrote any of my books?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Let me come back and say that the point I am making is
 6that you have misrepresented even the first part of the
 7order on which you rely.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We have moved on.
 9 MR IRVING:     I am looking at paragraph 6 of page 359.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, on your website.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Are you suggesting that at any time that the actual
12letter has been in front of me?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. Presumably that is why you mention it in the
14website.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     I refer to it on the website ----
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- to draw people's attention to it?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you know where the letter is now?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I would imagine ----
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it in the Institute of History in Munich?
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The question is whether you had it in your
23possession, is it not, Mr Irving, really?
24 MR IRVING:     Yes.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, did you or did you not?
26 MR IRVING:     The answer is not, but I cannot lead evidence as a

.   P-102



 1cross-examiner.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Of course you can. You can say: Were you
 3aware, Professor Evans, that I never actually had this
 4letter from Mrs de Bois?
 5 MR IRVING:     Yes. Can I put it this way? Professor Evans, in
 6writing in line 4, "However, he makes no mention of the
 7letter's contents", were you aware at the time you wrote
 8this in your report that I have never had the letter in my
 9hands in my life?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     On this report I quote you as saying that there was this
11letter and you say it was on your website, and I assumed
12because you were referring to it and that it is about
13killings in Riga that you must have known what was in,
14otherwise why would you refer to it?
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it not just stated on the website that in fact there
16are some interesting documents if people who want to
17follow it up may wish to go and have a look at, and one of
18them is the de Bois letter?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     How would you know it was interesting if you have not seen
20it?
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Because I am told by this correspondence. Could that be
22possible?
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is your case, Mr Irving, because you must put
24it clearly and straightforwardly, that you were unaware of
25what Mrs Schultz de Bois said in this letter?
26 MR IRVING:     Yes, and your Lordship will have heard from the

.   P-103



 1cross-examination over the previous ten minutes that I do
 2not attach very great importance to the remarks by
 3Canaris.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is a different matter.
 5 MR IRVING:     But that the letter was not in front of me at any
 6material time anyway.
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     If you think it was an important piece of evidence,
 8Mr Irving, and you did not have it, why did you not make
 9attempts to obtain it?
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     So, winding up this chapter on page 362, once again you
11have allowed yourself to dip into the dictionary of
12insult. You say that I am totally discredited a few
13months earlier; the document proved to be too useful to be
14discard altogether; a more egregious institute,
15manufactured manipulated, doctored, untenable, all the
16words come out?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you prepared to withdraw any of those on the basis of
19what you have been saying this morning?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Absolutely not, Mr Irving. The point is you acknowledge,
21as I say on pages 360 to 361, concerning the -- what it is
22about is your persistent claim that Hitler told Himmler to
23make the phone call to Heydrich attempting to stop the
24killing of the transport of Jews from Berlin to Riga, and
25you produced on your website on 17th May 1998 a document
26which is now in the Himmler appointments diary edition,

.   P-104



 1showing that Himmler only met Hitler after he phoned
 2Heydrich; and therefore that what you then call your
 3original theory, which in fact was presented as a matter
 4of incontrovertible fact that Hitler had told Himmler to
 5tell Heydrich to get the shootings stopped, was wrong.
 6Yet, even though you have done that in May 1998, it is too
 7nice a document for you really to let go of, so you post
 8another document on the website on 31st August 1998 in
 9which you argue that on 30th November Hitler
10had, "demonstrably ordered that the Berlin Jews were not
11to be killed", whereas you knew that to be wrong. That,
12to my mind, is an egregious instance of a completely
13unscrupulous use of a manipulated source.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you prepared to accept that historians or scholars or
15writers sometimes have differing opinions on the
16interpretation of the identical sets of documents, and
17that one scholar or historian will have one interpretation
18because of his own particular mind set, and the other
19historian will have perhaps better sources, he will be
20familiar with the CSDIC reports which you yourself have
21admittedly totally unfamiliar with; he will have worked
22for many weeks months in the police decodes with which you
23are also totally unfamiliar, and that this entitles to him
24to reach conclusions on the quality of evidence which you
25are not entitled to reach?
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think you are missing the thrust of the

.   P-105



 1criticism that Professor Evans is making there. The
 2criticism he is making is that at one point you are
 3actually admitting that you got the Himmler phone log
 4wrong, but having admitted that you later went on to
 5assert again your original interpretation of the log as
 6showing had Hitler had demonstrably ordered that the
 7Berlin Jews were not to be killed. That is the point.
 8 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I do not want to pick up his particular
 9words here ----
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am sure you do not.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am just trying to point out to you that
12your rather long question missed the point of the
13question.
14 MR IRVING:     I am just about to take this point up. I do not
15particularly, I repeat, wish to fall into the trap of
16using the words used by the witness here, which is that
17I knew it to be wrong. The fact that the Himmler agenda
18indicates that there was a meeting between Hitler and
19Himmler after the telephone call to Heydrich, does not
20exclude the possibility that they met before the telephone
21call. The fact that he had an appointment with Hitler at a
22certain time, to say in the words, and your Lordship will
23find it in the transcript, that he only met Hitler
24afterwards, there is no proof of that, that he only met
25Hitler afterwards. What we do know is that they were very
26close, that they repeatedly went in and out of each

.   P-106



 1other's rooms and offices; that the appointment was at a
 2certain time; that upon arriving at Hitler's headquarters
 3for some reason Heydrich had to make this extraordinary
 4phone call ordering a total reversal of this operation
 5going on in Riga, and any common sense historian is going
 6to come to the conclusion that A is in some way connected
 7with B. But we are dealing here with Professor Evans who
 8is not able to join the dots in this particular case and
 9says there is no link.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You join too many dots, Mr Irving, that is the problem.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is where we differ.
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     To answer your ----
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     And to say that this is perverse or obtuse or a
14manipulation or a distortion is, in my view, a perverse
15use of the witness box, because you are privileged to make
16these remarks. You know you can make these remarks
17without fear of any kind of consequences, because this is
18a court of law.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Would you like to leave that sort of thing to
20me. If I thought Professor Evans were doing that, then
21I would not let him do it but I do not, and it is not for
22you to say that.
23 MR IRVING:     The reason why I will say to your Lordship that
24I have felt it perfectly proper to continue to rely upon
25these documents in the manner I have, is that I have
26perfectly properly, just as your Lordship will remember in

.   P-107



 1the case of the Dresden documents, drawn it to the
 2attention of other historians that there may be a flaw in
 3this chain of argument. However, I have the right to
 4remain by my original position on the basis of my entire
 5knowledge which has been assembled, after all, over
 6thirty-nine years of working in the archives.
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am beginning to wonder who is in the witness box, you or
 8me, Mr Irving.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, but, Professor Evans.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am not sure if there were any questions all involved in
11those series of lengthy speeches.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     There was not, so you do not need to answer.
13Wait for the next question.
14 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I am going to ask if we can -- I would
15normally at this point have asked for a five-minute
16interruption, but in view of the fact that we are so close
17to the lunch adjournment can I suggest we make the
18adjournment now? I have come to the end of this
19particular part.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I am perfectly happy with that, but if
21it does not cause any inconvenience I think we will resume
22in an hour's time at 10 to 2.
23 (Luncheon Adjournment)
24(1.50 p.m.)
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, Mr Irving.
26 MR IRVING:     My Lord, thank you very much for allowing me an

.   P-108



 1earlier adjournment. That was a useful hiatus. We will
 2now proceed to the Schlegelberger memorandum, unless it is
 3not worth discussing. I think myself we ought to.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I certainly would not think it was not worth
 5discussing, no.
 6 MR IRVING:     This is page 363 of the expert report.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you.
 8 MR IRVING:     Professor Evans, just so that we can be certain
 9what we are talking about by the Schlegelberger
10memorandum, do you have a little bundle of documents in
11front of you?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you turn page 9 of that little bundle?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have been overwhelmed with material here.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     We are only going to need the little bundle and your
16report?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This is bundle D, is it in J1?
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Page 9 of that little bundle. This is the only bundle
19I will be referring to myself.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     J1 we are in, are we?
21 MS ROGERS:     Tab 7.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you.
23 MR IRVING:     These are the only documents I shall be referring
24to in my cross-examination, apart from the expert report.
25Is document No. 9 in that bundle what we are going to call
26the Schlegelberger memorandum for the sake of simplicity?

.   P-109



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, it is in here.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     In the top left hand corner it has the number 01/111
 3crossed out?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I have it.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you seen correspondence in the discovery that I have
 6made in this action which indicates that I was aware of
 7the existence of this memorandum in about 1970?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you seen correspondence indicating that in 1972
10I dealt with the US National Archives in an attempt to
11locate this missing memorandum? Can I take you straight,
12please, to page 22 of the bundle?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you know who Robert Wolfe is?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You tell me.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     He is the head, or he was for about 30 years the head, of
17the Foreign Document section of the US National Archives.
18He may have retired by now. Having read that letter, does
19it look as though I have asked the National Archives to
20provide me with photocopies of documents in a Nuremberg
21document identified at that time as PS-4025?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Where they found everything except one item?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     That letter to me is dated May 5th 1972?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.

.   P-110



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     So can you conclude from that that I had been searching
 2for some time for that document, specifically identifying
 3it by content?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No. Just that you are asking them for it.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     A document, an alleged note on Hitler's intentions.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     He writes, "With the exception of the alleged note on
 8Hitler's intention to postpone the solution of the Jewish
 9problem", he is supplying me with photocopies of the six
10documents.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, the purpose of the next few questions for about
13four or five minutes will be purely to establish where
14these documents came from.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Which documents?
16 MR IRVING:     The Schlegelberger memorandum and the surrounding
17documents, the other five documents, or the other six
18documents.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. Just for my benefit, was the one that
20they were not able to find the original of the
21Schlegelberger memorandum?
22 MR IRVING:     Yes, absolutely.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That was not entirely clear. Thank you.
24 MR IRVING:     Would you go to pages 18 and 19 of the little
25bundle? This is a Staff Evidence Analysis sheet prepared
26by the American prosecuting staff at Nuremberg.

.   P-111



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is that right? About a year after the war was over?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does that describe a list of five documents that they have
 5found, and they give a brief summary of what each document
 6is?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     The title and nature is correspondence between the Reich
 9Chancellery and the Reich ministry of Justice on matters
10concerning the treatment of the Jews?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     They put the date as March to April 1942?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     The fourth item on this list is simply stated as being a
15note stating that Hitler intended to postpone solution of
16the Jewish problem until after the war?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you understand why I was interested in seeing the
19content of that note?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. Indeed I can.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. So I will tell you, Professor, that this Staff
22Evidence Analysis sheet was provided to me by the
23Institute of History in 1970 by a colleague working for
24me, as I can identify by the red rubber stamp at the
25bottom left hand corner "indexed", which was my rubber
26stamp.

.   P-112



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     I first was tipped off that this document had existed in
 31970. I am still looking for it in 1972 and it is thanks
 4to the efforts of a German historian, Professor Eberhard
 5Jaeckel, that we finally obtained the actual document. Is
 6that correct?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     In about 1978?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     So, when you write on page 364, line 2, indeed it was
11Jaeckel who first informed Irving of the document's
12existence, this is not correct, is that right? It was the
13other way round?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, I should have said perhaps whereabouts. That is
15strictly true, I suppose, in the sense that it seems to
16have been lost beforehand and nobody could actually
17confirm its actual existence.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is true, that statement there.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am not going make anything of it, just a little bit of
21flag waving.
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You can wave your flag as much as you like, Mr Irving.
23The point is there was no evidence before that that it
24actually existed.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     No evidence that it actually existed?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No. It seemed to have been lost. It might have been

.   P-113



 1destroyed but it turns out that it did and does exist, and
 2it was Eberhard Jaeckel who informed you of that fact.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I ask you to go, in that case, please, to pages 15, 16
 4and 17 of the bundle? This is a little bundle of
 5documents issued by a British authority, the Political
 6Intelligence Department of the Foreign Office, even
 7earlier than that Staff Evidence Analysis sheet, November
 816th, 1945?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does it show as the final item which they have typed a
11copy of, actually the contents of the Schlegelberger
12memorandum, typed out in full with all the initials and
13everything else?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     So it existed at that time, the British had it, but by the
16time the Americans got their hands on the file of
17photocopies, this particular item had somehow vanished?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, or been mislaid.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Or been mislaid?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Could not be located. So there was no indication that it
21still existed.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     How high would you rate the importance of this document in
23the order of things as an historian? Was the document
24linking Adolf Hitler by name with the Final Solution, or
25with the solution of the Jewish problem? Is it an
26authentic document? Do you accept that?

.   P-114



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, I think this raises the question of your double
 2standards in the evaluation of documents. If we turn to
 3the document itself, we have heard you in the course of
 4this trial, Mr Irving, using the most nit-picking
 5flimsiest excuses to try and discredit documents you do
 6not like. Here we have a document which has no security
 7classification, no date, no signature, no reference
 8number. It is clearly in a file that was made up after
 9the war, because the British Foreign Office list the
10documents as documents found among the files of the
11Ministry of Justice. So we do not actually know where it
12came from. It is merely conjecture to say that it was
13written by Schlegelberger, who was the acting Minister of
14Justice in 1942. There is no letter head on it at all.
15And, of course, as evidence of Hitler's views, it is third
16hand. That is to say, it is somebody, possibly
17Schlegelberger, reporting on what Lammers had told him
18about what Hitler had said. There is no indication of
19actually who wrote this.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you answer the question?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     If we were to apply your criteria, one would cast
22tremendous doubt upon this document. But, of course, you
23have not done that yourself because it is a document that
24supports your own views.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you now answer the question? Does the document appear
26to be authentic? Have you any reasons to doubt its

.   P-115



 1authenticity?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It appears to be an authentic document.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you agree that this document comes with an amazing
 4pedigree by way of all the documents indicating where it
 5has been and in whose hands ever since the end of the war,
 6which we do not have in one single case in connection with
 7the documents whose integrity I have impugned?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No. You said yourself it went missing for a long time.
 9But that is an amazing pedigree, Mr Irving?
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Can you agree that the document is referred ----
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is? A document has gone missing for many years. That
12is an amazing pedigree.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you look back to page 22, please, which is the letter
14from the National Archives to me in 1972? In the final
15paragraph does it say: "The documents are black
16photostatic reproductions of originals certified by R M W
17Kempner to have been located among the Justice Ministry
18files at the Ministerial Collection Centre in West
19Berlin"?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. They describe it as an alleged note on Hitler's
21intentions and so on.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     We are looking just at the pedigree of the document.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is part of it. Clearly the National Archives do not
24want to accept that it actually exists because they cannot
25find it.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Could we proceed on the assumption that it

.   P-116



 1has a lot of odd features, but you are prepared to accept
 2that it does appear to be authentic?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, certainly.
 4 MR IRVING:     To repeat my previous question, does this document
 5come with a somewhat better pedigree by way of documents
 6tracing its provenance than the document whose integrity
 7I have impugned?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     On which basis do you place that statement? The document
10whose integrity I have impugned dated June 24th 1943 has
11come without any pedigree whatsoever, it is just a
12document which has turned up in the Auschwitz Museum
13Archives, having been delivered to them by East Berlin?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This document is the document that has turned up in a
15postwar file, claimed to have been located amongst the
16files of the Ministry of Justice. We do not know. We do
17not have that original pedigree.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am not going to spend much more time questioning this,
19but have you seen correspondence between myself and
20Mr Kempner, who was the Deputy Chief American prosecutor
21at Nuremberg, in which he accepts that this document was
22genuine?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am accepting it is genuine, Mr Irving.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     So the whole of that was just a bit of a ----
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No. It was an answer to your question.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     The question I asked was, do you accept that this document

.   P-117



 1is authentic, and now we have a yes from you?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. The question you asked, Mr Irving----
 3 MR RAMPTON:     That is not fair because the question was two
 4barrelled, or sometimes five or six barrelled. The
 5question also was, do you accept this has a better
 6pedigree than the document which actually comes from two
 7archives, in two different forms, that Mr Irving impugns?
 8The answer to that is no.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     True, but that was another question. Yes,
10I accept that. Anyway, we have now got to the point where
11Professor Evans accepts, despite the odd feature, that it
12is an authentic document. Shall we now see what it
13actually means?
14 MR IRVING:     Very well. Professor Evans, would you propose a
15translation, or read to us the translation you have given
16of the document on page 364, of the Schlegelberger
17memorandum?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Audibly so that the courtroom can here, please?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I hope I always do this. Do I mumble, Mr Irving? It is
21in the sort of past reported speech, which makes it
22somewhat difficult to translate exactly.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Past reported speech?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. Herr Reich Minister Lammers informed me that the
25Fuhrer had repeatedly, or has repeatedly, declared or
26explained to him that he, well, wanted, literally wanted

.   P-118



 1to know.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     You can read out your translation on page 364, if you
 3want.
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     -- wanted the solution of the Jewish Question put back
 5until after the war. Accordingly, the present discussions
 6possess a merely theoretical value in the opinion of Reich
 7Minister Lammers. But he will be in all cases concerned
 8that fundamental decisions are not reached by a surprise
 9intervention from another agency without his knowledge.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. It is actually written in the subjunctive, is it
11not?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right. It is reported speech.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     You indicate it as reported speech.
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is the equivalent of the perfect tense, I suppose. In
16other words, "he has said", "the Fuhrer has repeatedly
17stated", you have said "had" but, if we cannot agree on
18that, we will move on to the next one.
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     The initials that are on the bottom left hand corner, is
21that where you would normally expect on a German document
22the distribution list to be, who the document is addressed
23to?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is addressed to State Secretary Freisler?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Not necessarily. I think a possible reading of that is

.   P-119



 1"17.7.Freisler" or, in other words, 17th July, which
 2would make it 17th July 1941. It is rather difficult,
 3because the S looks to me like "17.7.Freisler".
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Why do you say 1941?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Because that more likely would fit in for other reasons.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     I see, for extraneous reasons.
 7 MR IRVING:     I missed this. Where do we see the 41 then?
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is what I have just asked.
 9 MR IRVING:     Thank you very much, my Lord.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I said it said "17.7", which would be 1941 in more
11likelihood.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you not accept that the first hieroglyph is the Zutelin
13German handwriting S, followed by a T, followed by another
14S, which is the correct abbreviation for State Secretary,
15which is what his rank was?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Very obscure, but I think it is a possible reading of it,
17that it is a 17.7.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. If it was Freisler and if he was State Secretary,
19you would not expect to see him there without a rank in
20front of his name, would you? You would not expect
21somebody just to write down just "Freisler"?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is rather peculiar. It looks almost as if there is a
23capital F, and then somebody else has written in after it
24the rest of his name. It is not his initials, it is not
25the normal way in which he would himself indicate that he
26received it. It is another peculiarity of this document.

.   P-120



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Could you answer the question? You would not expect, if
 2he is the second most important man in the Ministry, that
 3he would be happy to get a document addressed to him just
 4as Freisler?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, we do not know who has put this on this. It might
 6well be somebody else at some other time.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     This goes back to my earlier question. Is this the place
 8where, on German Civil Service documents the distribution
 9list was always placed, on the bottom left-hand corner?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Normally. It has two, seems to be UB4 and U something 5
11underneath it, UB5, which would be presumably divisions
12where it was going to be sent to.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would I be right at this point in suggesting that your
14reluctance to make progress with this document is because
15you are very unhappy about this document?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No. I am trying to point out, Mr Irving that, if you did
17not like this document's contents, you would be saying
18everything that I am saying and no doubt a great deal
19more. It is normal on a document, this is a kind of scrap
20of paper with no letter heading, no date, no signature, it
21would be normal actually on a formal important document to
22type the distribution list on the bottom, particularly if
23it was relating to a decision that was made.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you worked ----
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This looks like some kind of note made by somebody to
26themselves as a kind of aide memoire.

.   P-121



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     A minute?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, a minute. It is not a formal minute. It is clearly
 3a kind of aide memoire of a rather informal sort, as it
 4does not have any of the normal things that you get with a
 5formal document.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. It has some kind of paginated number in the top
 7left, which appears to be, as you state in your expert
 8report, probably put on there by the Nuremberg
 9authorities, is that correct?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, crossed out.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I thought we were proceeding on the
12assumption that it is accepted to be authentic?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. I am happy to go along with that.
14 MR IRVING:     Yes. So it is a memorandum that has been drawn up,
15unless I am wrong, for the attention of State Secretary
16Freisler and two other departments of the Justice
17Ministry?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes Freisler certainly seems to have been, I guess, an
19addressee of it.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Somebody is passing on to him the information from Hans
21Lammers, who is the head of the Reichschancellory, is that
22correct?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. His own information about a meeting or a phone
24conversation or something with Lammers. That is what he
25is passing on. His own report on a meeting with Lammers.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     In which Lammers has passed on the not insignificant

.   P-122



 1information that the Fuhrer has repeatedly said he wants
 2the solution of the Jewish problem postponed until the war
 3is over.
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes,.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     So it would be interesting, would it not, to find out when
 6this memorandum came into existence?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Exactly, yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are opinions divided on that?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is very difficult because it does not actually have a
10formal date on it, so you have to weigh up the
11possibilities. I think there are two possibilities. One
12is that it came into existence on 17th July 1941, which is
13the day after an important meeting at which arrangements
14were made about the administration of the Eastern
15territories, at a time when the decision to, as it were,
16solve the Jewish question in the Nazis' own terminology
17had not been taken. Or it is possible that it belongs in
18a series of discussions that took place between the
19Ministry of Justice and other instances in the spring of
201942, in the wake of the Wannsee conference about the fate
21of half Jews and Jews in mixed marriages. That second
22context indeed is the one in which it is placed in this
23made up set of documents.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you agree that on the Staff Evidence Analysis sheet,
25which is page 18 of the bundle, it states that the date
26covered by the file is March to April 1942?

.   P-123



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. That is wrong, of course, because one of the
 2documents dates from 21st November 1941.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Is that document out of numerical sequence?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The documents are not in chronological order. That is to
 5say, it depends how you look at it, but sheet 153 is what
 6we are calling the Schlegelberger memorandum, and then
 7sheet 154 is a document of 21st November 41, sheet 155 is
 812th March 1942, sheet 156 is the 18th March 1942, and 157
 9is 5th April, and 159 is 20th November. So, if you are
10going in strict chronological order of the pagination on
11the top right hand of the page, you would have to say that
12this document came from 1941, because the next document is
1321st November 1941. However ----
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton , do you want to say something?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     -- because this is a made up collection, you cannot be
16sure that it is in chronological order.
17 MR RAMPTON:     Miss Rogers -- I will do at some stage -- asks me
18to point out that the clip that Mr Irving is using is
19missing a document.
20 MR IRVING:     In November 1941?
21 MR RAMPTON:     No, no, no -- is missing. If on that list is the
22minutes of the meeting on 6th March 1942, it is missing
23from Mr Irving's clip.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not sure I quite followed that. Does it
25matter?
26 MR RAMPTON:     I am not sure that I do either.

.   P-124



 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think we might just press on a little bit.
 2 MR IRVING:     Yes.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It could be 41, it could be 42. I think in
 4the end, if I have understood you right, Professor Evans,
 5you were inclined to accept that it might well be 42?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     On balance, but it is a very fine balance, my Lord.
 7 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I understand that.
 8 MR IRVING:     It is exactly the position I am trying to steer
 9towards.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     One has to make it very clear to anybody reading this
11document its peculiar nature, uncertainties about its
12date, its origination, who made it, and all of these sorts
13of things.
14 MR IRVING:     In that case I will put to the witness the evidence
15that goes towards supporting the 1942 dating. Is there a
16letter from Schlegelberger to Lammers after the March 16th
171942 conference?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     We will come back to the March 6th 1942 conference because
20I know we want to discuss the contents of the memorandum.
21At present we are just dealing with the dating.
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Right.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is there a letter from Schlegelberger to Lammers in which
24he says words to the effect: I have read the report on the
25meeting. Decisions appear to be brewing here which look
26pretty murky. They must not get away with this. You are

.   P-125



 1going to have to brief the Fuhrer. Can we talk about it?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Which document is this?
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think you must if you can -- I know it is
 4difficult for you, but if you can help me a little as to
 5where one finds that document?
 6 MR IRVING:     I have only been given a very truncated version of
 7the Schlegelberger bundle, I am afraid.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I see.
 9 MR IRVING:     It will be in the Schlegelberger bundle, one of the
1025 pages, with a complete translation of that letter. It
11will be dated March 1942. I have provided your Lordship
12in that bundle with the complete translation of it. It is
13about a whole page letter.
14 MR RAMPTON:     I do not have the translation.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think it is page 13?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Page 2 is the translation that I have got in J1.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well done. We have found it.
18 MR RAMPTON:     It is the document with 155 at the top right
19corner and 371 at the bottom.
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
21 MR IRVING:     Would you agree with my brief gloss on it, that is
22Schlegelberger saying that he has read the report on March
236th conference, things appear to be brewing, someone is
24going to have to discuss this with the Fuhrer, can I meet
25you first?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, not precisely. It is important to say that it says,

.   P-126



 1"My assistant has just briefed me on the result of the
 2meeting of the 6th of the 3rd about the treatment of Jews
 3and mixed race Jews". Then he goes on to say that there
 4are decisions in preparation which he says are completely
 5impossible, as you say. Then he wants to have a talk with
 6Lammers about this because of this. Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Before the matter goes up to the Fuhrer, is that right?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     "As the outcome of the talks is to form the basis for the
 9decision of the Fuhrer, it would be urgently desirable for
10me to have a personal talk with you in good time about the
11affair".
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you agree this helps us to narrow down the period
13when the meeting, the date of the memorandum?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is an indication, yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was there a meeting then between Schlegelberger and
16Lammers in consequence of this? Did Lammers write back a
17three or four line letter saying, sure, let us meet?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     What date is that letter, please?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is 18th March, and Lammers says he is coming back to
21Berlin at the end of the month.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     At the end of March he is going to come back to Berlin?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     He offers to meet Schlegelberger on this matter, whatever
25the matter is?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, that is right.

.   P-127



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     To which matter we will certainly come back, I assure
 2you.
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is pretty obviously a reply to the previous letter,
 4which is about the treatment of Jews and mixed race Jews.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     So, on the balance of probabilities, the meeting between
 6Lammers and Schlegelberger was some time at the end of
 7March, or possibly running on into early April, as other
 8historians suggest now?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Jaeckel suggested it may have been a meeting on April
1110th, which he has identified.
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     There is no point really quibbling one way about ten days,
14is there? We can accept therefore that, on the balance of
15probabilities, if the 1942 scenario is correct, this was
16when the meeting took place between Lammers and
17Schlegelberger?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It looks like it, yes. There are other possibilities in
19this very uncertain document.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     So?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is one possible interpretation. We are dealing with
22matters of interpretation here.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     So if we can accept this is a minute written by or
24dictated by Schlegelberger -- and that is an "if" -- then
25when he begins by saying, "Reichsminister Lammers informed
26me", he may very well, on the balance of probabilities, be

.   P-128



 1talking about something he has heard at the end of March
 2or early April 1942?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Indeed, yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     About the Hitler desire that the solution of the Jewish
 5problem be postponed until after the war is over?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does your Lordship wish to ask any further questions about
 8the dating of the document?
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No. If I may say so, you have put it very
10clearly.
11 MR IRVING:     Thank you very much.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     May I just ask one question?
13 MR IRVING:     Yes.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Professor Evans, is there anything (and
15I cannot remember) between the date when Lammers says,
16"Yes, we can meet", and the date, the assumed date, on
17the 1942 hypothesis of the Schlegelberger memorandum, to
18indicate what the discussions were?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No. It follows from the -- it all follows from the
20meeting of March 6th. So there is -- it is an inference
21that the so-called Schlegelberger memorandum belongs in
22that period.
23 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     What I am really getting at, is there any evidence what
24the substantive discussion was about, whether it was about
25Jews generally or whether it was about Mischlinger --
26sorry?

.   P-129



 1 MR IRVING:     That is what we are going to be dealing with in
 2this part of the cross-examination, my Lord.
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It would appear that what we are calling a Schlegelberger
 4memorandum is the indication we have that there was a
 5meeting or to suggest that there was a meeting.
 6 MR IRVING:     Now we will tackle the topic, Professor Evans. We
 7will try to mutually and jointly arrive at some conclusion
 8as to what was discussed in these deliberations. There
 9were two meetings of importance early in 1942, were there
10not? There was the Wannsee conference on January 20th
111942?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     And there was this follow up conference on March 6th 1942?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Both of them, effectively, chaired by the
16Reichssicherheitshauptamt, by Heydrich?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     And with representatives of a not very high level from all
19the Ministries involved in the Jewish problem?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     The Wannsee Conference, I do not think we need to look at
22in this context, unless you particularly want to make any
23comments about it? Your submission is, of course, that
24the Wannsee conference discussed the killing operations
25because Eichmann admitted this under interrogation, is
26that correct?

.   P-130



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right, yes. It certainly reached -- there was a
 2very elaborate lengthy discussion of what should be
 3treated, how the Jews of Europe should be treated, and the
 4memorandum -- the minutes of the Wannsee Conference speak
 5in terms of evacuation and so on from all countries of
 6Europe, even those which were not yet under the Germans'
 7control. Eichmann said later when he was in the hands of
 8the Israelis that, of course, that is the language used
 9about evacuation disguised the fact that people had been
10talking about killing.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Disguised it from whom, from the general public or from
12each other?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     From anybody who should be, from anybody who should get
14the minutes of the Wannsee Conference.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am only going to dwell a minute or two on the Wannsee
16Conference, Professor. Your basis for saying that it was
17disguised language and euphemisms is only the Eichmann
18interrogation in 1961, is that right? None of the other
19participants backed him up on that?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, one can infer from the fact that large scale
21killings of Jews were already going on, that that is what
22is meant by evacuation.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but none of the other participants, probably about a
24dozen of them, were questioned about this after the war,
25when questioned under various conditions either by myself
26or by the American or the British interrogators, confirmed

.   P-131



 1what Eichmann had said, the killing was talked about.
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I think it is unlikely that they would wish to do so.
 3There was a representative, I think Freisler was there who
 4represented the Ministry of Justice, so the Ministry of
 5Justice knew perfectly well what the conclusions of the
 6Wannsee Conference were, whether they were concerned with
 7extermination or simply with forced evacuation of Europe's
 8Jews from their resident countries to the East.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We do not want to get sidetracked. The point
10about Wannsee was that there was not any particular
11discussion about Mischlinger there or was there?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     There was, my Lord, yes, yes -- quite extensive. They
13spent a great deal of time talking about them because,
14although they seemed to have found it easy to decide what
15to do with Jews, they found it extraordinarily difficult
16to reach some decision about what to do with so-called
17Mischlinger and Jews married to non-Jews.
18 MR IRVING:     Yes, I think we can agree that the March 6th 1942
19conference was almost entirely concerned with the question
20of the half Jews and the Mischlinger, was it not?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, not almost entirely. It was entirely concerned with
22Mischlinger and half Jews.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     It was entirely?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     And Jews in mixed marriages, yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     As a component of the Final Solution?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.

.   P-132



 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is there a document that establishes that?
 2Presumably there is.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, your Lordship has it.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I know, but I would just like to know where
 5it is.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, I am trying to get help with that. I have it
 7in a file I marked "Schlegelberger" which is terribly
 8helpful with quotes round it, mind. It is quite a long
 9document. I have it just before the 12th March letter.
10 MR IRVING:     It is page 6 onwards. Is this the letter dated
11April 5th?
12 MR RAMPTON:     No, I am talking about the minutes.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     6th March, the minutes of 6th March.
14 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, minutes of the Conference on 6th March.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It seems to me this is quite an important
16document.
17 MR RAMPTON:     It is an important document, yes.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     And I have no idea where it is.
19 MR IRVING:     That has not been in any of my bundles, I know.
20That would have been in one of their bundles.
21 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. Mr Irving did not include it in the papers
22he gave your Lordship, so we provided it separately.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is not, I think, entirely fair. Anyway,
24let us find it. It does not matter whose fault it is.
25 MR RAMPTON:     All right, I can tell you. It is in H1(viii), if
26your Lordship has it?

.   P-133



 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can somebody make a photocopy of it this
 2afternoon?
 3 MR RAMPTON:     It has been up there, but it has disappeared.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do not start blaming me!
 5 MR IRVING:     Is it in English or in German?
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     German.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     German.
 8 MR IRVING:     In that case, my Lord, I will ----
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think that probably matters.
10 MR IRVING:     --- volunteer to obtain an English translation for
11your Lordship over the weekend.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is very kind.
13 THE WITNESS:     I do have my own copy of this document. Thank
14you very much.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am ready when you are.
16 MR IRVING:     Very well, my Lord. I am in the witness's hands
17here which places me in some dread. Would you give a
18brief overview of what the conference was about? It was
19about the treatment, we have agreed, of the problem Jews,
20the half Jews, the quarter Jews, the people married to
21Jews?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, or the Jews married to non-Jews.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, and various -- basically, various proposals were
25thrown about at this meeting and there were some proposals
26that they should be sterilized and this raised alarm

.   P-134



 1bells. I am just trying to find my own ...
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Why would this be, because of the immense burden that this
 3would place on German medical services or the ----
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, the alarm bells in ----
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- red tape?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- the Ministry of Justice because there are legal
 7proposals. Right, I have got this here now.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was it a very daunting task in any way, to carry out the
 9sterilization?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     There was a proposal that they should be compulsorily
11sterilized and remain in the Reich, but some thought that
12would not be -- that it is not impossible during the war
13-- it was not possible during the war. Mass
14sterilizations would take up medical facilities needed for
15the war wounded, and that in any case this would still
16keep them alive, as it were, and that would be a problem.
17There was an alternative proposal put forward which says
18that half Jews would be equated with Jews and "evacuated"
19possibly to special so-called settlements set up for
20half-Jews alone.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does it use quotation marks around "evacuated" or does it
22use the word "evacuated"?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Sorry, I am saying that -- they are my quotation marks
24because it is, I think, quite possible that that means
25they would in the end be killed. It may well be a
26euphemism at this stage of events if we are talking here,

.   P-135



 1well, we are talking about 6th March 1942; and there were
 2other proposals, that there be a law passed which would
 3dissolve marriages between Jews and non-Jewish Germans and
 4that was opposed for various legal and other reasons and
 5that it should be made easier for them to divorce. So
 6there was a great deal of talk about all these various
 7different kinds of solutions.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, does it look like a whole bunch of problems they are
 9conjuring up for themselves?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, they are kind of agonising over what to do, given
11their basic anti-semitic premises, it is a problem for
12them.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     What position was Germany in in March 1942? Was Germany
14pretty well down to its uppers? Was it fighting a
15desperate battle on the Eastern Front? Had it nearly lost
16the entire Eastern Army in the previous winter?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Not as desperate as it became later.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     So they had quite a lot of things on their plate apart
19from dealing with these domestic problems?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, but it was part of their mentality, as you could see
21from the space devoted to the Mischlinger question in the
22Wannsee Conference, that they should kind of split hairs
23and spend a lot of time talking about what seems to us to
24be completely ludicrous problems, but they took these
25extremely seriously ----
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, these lawyers, they sat around all day talking about

.   P-136



 1pernickety little details, did they not?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am afraid they did a lot of the time, yes. But for
 3them, of course, it was very serious.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     For the lawyers or for Germany?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     For the lawyers.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     But Germany, you agree, was fighting desperate battles on
 7the on Eastern Front; the air war was just beginning;
 8they had manpower problems developing; they were trying to
 9control an ever expanding Empire; they had unrest?
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, I mean, that is a very long
11question. In the end, it is pretty neutral because the
12fact is they were doing it. That may be odd, may be not.
13 MR IRVING:     I am moving on to the point of the question.
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Good.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     If you were Adolf Hitler -- perish the thought -- and
16somebody came to you with all this red tape and said, "We
17are tackling this problem now, Mein Fuhrer", what would
18your response be?
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But what do you mean by "this problem"?
20 MR IRVING:     Whatever the problem is, whatever ----
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That begs rather an important question, I
22think. I mean, that is the whole point of the discussion
23you are having at the moment.
24 MR IRVING:     If anybody, if you were the Fuhrer or if you were a
25Dictator of a State in a desperate military situation, and
26somebody came to you with any problem which was not

.   P-137



 1directly related to winning the war, what would your
 2response be?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It would depend on the problem, Mr Irving.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you not say, push this on one side, "Let us, for
 5heaven's sake, leave that until this war is over. Let us
 6win the war first and then we will tackle this problem"?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, Mr Irving. I think you could say that Hitler
 8repeatedly the previous December made speeches,
 9statements, about what was to happen to the Jews. He
10spent a lot of time thinking about the Jews and this had
11gone on into the Wannsee Conference.
12     Hitler was an obsessive anti-Semite in whom
13there was really little distinction between the process,
14the progress of the war and the Jewish question. He
15regarded the war as having been started by the Jews. He
16thought they were responsible for it. When America came
17into war on 11th December 1941, Hitler thought that the
18Americans had been put up to this by -- I know he declared
19war in America, but he thought that the American support
20for the allied side was a result of Jewish machinations.
21And all of this weighed extremely heavily upon his mind.
22     On the other hand, the kind of legalistic, you
23know, and to go on, I mean, he also, of course, considered
24that the Soviet Union was run by Judaio Bolsheviks and
25that the Jews were behind that as well. He was completely
26obsessed with this. Therefore, he does not, kind of, he

.   P-138



 1does not even make a distinction between the exigencies of
 2the war and what he regarded as the problem of the Jews of
 3Germany, Poland and the rest of Europe.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is there any evidence ----
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     On the other hand, just so that I may finish answer the
 6question -- I apologise, it is rather a long answer, but
 7it is an important question to get straight -- of course,
 8when the Ministry of the Interior and the Ministry of
 9Justice and so on, and all the various other instances
10start agonizing at considerable length as to what to do
11about the half Jews, the quarter Jews, Jews married to
12Germans, where do you draw the line and so on, then it is
13quite likely that Hitler would have said, "Look, this is
14all too complicated. We have got the main problem of the
15Jews solved, we are taking them all out to the East and we
16are killing them in large numbers, let us leave this
17relatively small group, let us put that off to the end of
18the war".
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is the spin you put on this document, is it, on the
20Schlegelberger memorandum?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     If you want to date it, if you date it to this period, to
22the kind of bureaucratic fall out of 6th March 1942
23meeting, then that seems to be the reasonable
24interpretation.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you read ----
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     If you want to date it to July 1941, then I think you have

.   P-139



 1to put a different and broader interpretation on it. It
 2is a matter of balancing out which you think is more
 3equal, which are more likely with this rather problematic
 4source.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Look at the evidence for the 1942 one first, and if that
 6is sufficiently compelling, I will invite his Lordship to
 7decide whether we ought to go back and have a look at the
 81941 scenario.
 9     Have you seen any testimonies of the people who
10were present at these meetings, or on the staff of the
11people involved in this, in which they describe how they
12approached Lammers for a decision and Lammers informed
13them that he had taken it up with Hitler and that Hitler
14had said he wanted it postponed until after the war was
15over? I am referring to the names of Boley, Ficker and
16other members of the various Ministerial staffs who were
17present at the March 6th 1942 conference?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     So that helps to narrow it down to this 1942 period, does
20it not?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That depends how much you rely on their testimony. One
22has to be rather cautious with it.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Because they were Nazis or anti-Semitic? Is this, I mean,
24the usual story, that we are not going to accept them
25because they were in some way loaded?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, not necessarily not going to accept them, but

.   P-140



 1I think again what you have here is postwar evidence from
 2memory by people who were involved in these decisions who
 3were quite clearly concerned not to incriminate
 4themselves. I think one has to approach that kind of
 5evidence with a great deal of caution. You yourself,
 6Mr Irving, have gone on repeatedly about the superior
 7nature of contemporary evidence over this kind of
 8evidence.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     If Lammers, for example, had said in the witness box that
10he wanted to find out for himself and he fixed an
11appointment with the Fuhrer, "whereupon the Fuhrer told me
12that, yes, it was quite right that he had given the
13evacuation order to Himmler, but he did not want to hear
14any more briefings about this Jewish problem during the
15war", is that all very much part of this scenario?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You will have to provide me with the documents, I am
17afraid.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     If you would look at page 10, please, of the little bundle
19I gave you?
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Sorry?
21 MR IRVING:     My little 25 page bundle of documents.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The one you put in yesterday?
23 MR IRVING:     No, it has been before your Lordship for about 10
24days. It is bundle B, I think.
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This is J1, is it?
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes?

.   P-141



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     J1, tab 7.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     You may found this unsatisfactory, but these are the
 3original source notes and end notes for Hitler's War, as
 4you will see ----
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Hang on, just let us try to -- the documents
 6are in such a mess, I am not even sure that I know which
 7clip you are ----
 8 MR IRVING:     Bundle B, my Lord, pages 10 and 11 -- no, bundle
 9D. Bundle D.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think I am there.
11 MR IRVING:     Yes. These are the end notes for the original
12edition of Hitler's War which we are already at page
132,653. It is the original note 63 which was never
14published, but it does contain this quotation of Lammers
15speaking at Nuremberg, volume 11, page 61. I accept it is
16a brief excerpt and you are entitled to impugn it on
17that ground.
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does this not appear to refer to this particular episode?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is not very satisfactory. One would wish to see the
21original.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     The original document, yes?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I mean, we are relying on your notes here, Mr Irving -- it
24is always a risky thing to do.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     But you accept that this bundle has been before the
26instructing solicitors now for some two weeks, and that if

.   P-142



 1I had got it wrong, no doubt one of their army of
 2researchers would have by now brandished it and Mr Rampton
 3would have been on his hind legs.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     Thank you very much for that, Mr Irving. You may
 5keep your insults to yourself. The fact is -- and,
 6indeed, imply them to yourself if you wish -- this
 7document, whatever it may be, if Mr Irving has relied upon
 8it, should have been disclosed by him.
 9 MR IRVING:     By what?
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     By you.
11 MR RAMPTON:     By you.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It looks as if it was though.
13 MR RAMPTON:     "What" may be the right description.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It looks as if it was.
15 MR IRVING:     It has been disclosed.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is 2653, is it not.
17 MR IRVING:     Oh, 2653 is part of the discovery.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is what I thought.
19 MR RAMPTON:     No, no, no, the original document.
20 MR IRVING:     Well, the original ----
21 MR RAMPTON:     If I am looking at page 10 of what Mr Irving calls
22his ----
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think the answer is it will be in Munich,
24will it not?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
26 MR IRVING:     Well, no, my Lord. The answer is it will be one of

.   P-143



 1the 46 blue volumes of the Nuremberg trial proceedings,
 2which are no longer in my custody, possession or power, of
 3course.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Because they are in Germany?
 5 MR IRVING:     Well, they are probably in every major library in
 6the world.
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Then why can we not -- why do you say the
 9Defendants have to go and get it?
10 MR IRVING:     I provided this excerpt, but I can certainly
11provide the entire passage and your Lordship is quite
12right ----
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think you have just accepted this really is
14not all that helpful by itself.
15 MR IRVING:     Yes, you are absolutely right, my Lord, and I will
16certainly provide the entire excerpt.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Shall we chase that up?
18 MR IRVING:     Yes. But my point there is it has been now, both
19by way of discovery of the original German text and also
20in this bundle before the Defence now for two weeks, in
21this excerpted form, and I feel quite sure that had there
22been any discrepancy we would have heard about it.
23     So, witness, if I can ask you the question,
24Lammers there is appearing to say that at some time he
25took the matter up with Hitler, including evacuation,
26whatever is meant by that, and Hitler said, yes, he had

.   P-144



 1given the evacuation order to Himmler, he did not want to
 2hear any more about this whole thing until after the war
 3is over?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     He did not want any more briefings, yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. So this is very much in the same kind of line as the
 6Schlegelberg memorandum, Schlegelberger memorandum?
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     On your interpretation of it?
 8 MR IRVING:     On any interpretation, my Lord.
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     On your interpretation.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am just saying it is in line, in the same kind of line.
11I am not talking about being a dilatory Fuhrer -- somebody
12who was always postponing things until tomorrow. Now we
13have more interrogations, if we have finished with that
14particular one, Professor?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Professor, you yourself have quoted at somewhat greater
17length than I have interrogations of people like Ficker
18and Boley?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I just start off by looking at my excerpts? If you
21wish to draw attention to any further excerpts that you
22have made -- this is page 12?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     "Cabinet Counselor Hans Ficker of the Reichs Chancellery
25stated in 1947: from the invitation to the March 6th
26meeting 'it was evident that evacuation or sterilisation

.   P-145



 1were on the agenda'. They took minutes. Lammers took
 2this minute to the Fuhrer, and returned with a
 3memorandum, 'The discussion of the whole affair is to be
 4postponed until the after the end of war'"?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     That must have been in March 1942, full stop, and he
 7continues, "'To our horror, we learned that that then
 8continued behind the scenes'"?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     And the original German is on the following pages,
11I think. Now, do you agree that on the basis of that
12evidence they did not just discuss sterilization, but
13wider matters as well?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, no. This is rather unreliable evidence, particularly
15this, "'To our horror, we learned that that then continued
16behind the scenes'" ----
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. I understand you do not like that, yes.
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- which I think is a very obvious piece of
19self-exculpation.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Unless it is true?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Ficker, if you look at the Himmler Dienstagebuch, Ficker
22actually had dinner with Himmler seven times in 1942 to 3
23at the height of the extermination of the Jews and it
24beggars belief to suppose that it continued. It also
25beggars belief to think that the, I suppose he means
26extermination of the Jews here, carried on behind the

.   P-146



 1scenes without Hitler or anybody in the senior positions
 2knowing about it. Ficker and Boley, Ficker himself
 3admitted that he and Boley were together in an internment
 4camp after the war, and they discussed the meeting of 6th
 5March 1942 more than a dozen times. In other words, they
 6cooked up a story, or a kind of version of the events,
 7between themselves, which would exculpate themselves.
 8That does not mean to say that everything they said was
 9wrong, but one has to regard what they said with extreme
10caution, particularly what Ficker says, because he was not
11actually at the meeting of 6th March 1942 himself.
12     There is also a problem when you look at what we
13are calling the Schlegelberger memorandum, because that
14simply reports Lammers's view that Hitler, in a kind of
15ongoing way, had said, repeatedly said, that he wanted the
16solution to the Jewish question postponed until after the
17war. It does not say that there was a specific meeting
18about the event. So I think we have to regard all of
19these later documents ----
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Unless Lammers had gone to Hitler and Hitler said, "Herr
21Lammers, how often have I told you I do not want to hear
22about this"?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think he would have said that he had gone to Hitler
24because then that would have meant that he had got from
25Hitler a kind of decision about this, and that is not what
26happened. That is not what happened.

.   P-147



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     We do not know. We are just tied to the documents in
 2front of us.
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     In you take the contemporary documents, still remembering
 4that it is uncertain whether it really was from the spring
 5of 1942, and if you regard the contemporary document as
 6superior evidence of these cooked up stories from after
 7the war in allied captivity by people who were trying to
 8save their skins, then I think there is no indication that
 9Herr Lammers did go specifically to Hitler. I think, if
10Lammers went specifically to Hitler and got a ruling, as
11it were, then it would have been in a different form from
12this rather unsatisfactory scrap of paper we have.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Professor Evans, do you think that that is
14borne out if you look at the text of the Schlegelberger
15memorandum? Because whatever the tense of "habe" and
16however you translate that, what it appears to me to be
17saying is that the Fuhrer has been on and on about
18postponing the solution of the Jewish question.
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Then he (Lammers) infers that the present discussions,
21which you say are about Mischlinge, are only of
22theoretical value.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Exactly, my Lord.
24 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Which is a very odd way of expressing himself if he had
25actually gone to Hitler and had, as it were, an
26instruction from Hitler.

.   P-148



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Precisely the point.
 2 MR IRVING:     Is it possible, my Lord, I discussed this question
 3with your Lordship, that Lammers, being an experienced
 4Civil Servant, did not want to burn his fingers by taking
 5it up with Hitler again and just said this to the
 6minister?
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is not your case.
 8 MR IRVING:     No, it is not. But it is dangerous to speculate
 9too far, to go too far outside ----
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Of course. I agree.
11 MR IRVING:     -- the parameters of the documents. We are just
12trying to establish what the document can have meant, who
13knew about it and whether in fact these statements are
14self serving. Professor Evans, if there were a number of
15people who were at this meeting and they were all held in
16allied internment camps, would there not have been a
17strong temptation for one of them to have purchased early
18release by shopping the others? Did that not happen quite
19a lot?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I thought you said we should not speculate too much.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I ask you if you have ever heard the witness Wilhelm
22Hottl H-O-T-T-L, who was an SS officer?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Where does he appear in relation to the Schlegelberger
24memorandum?
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     This is a typical example of a witness at Nuremberg who
26purchased favourable treatment by providing statements

.   P-149



 1that the Allies wanted to hear.
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     What has this to do with the Schlegelberger memorandum?
 3Which of these people, I mean Ficker or Boley? Ficker was
 4not there so we discount him. Is it Boley then, whom you
 5are saying purchased ----
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am not trying to trick you into an answer. I am just
 7asking you if it is not likely that, if there were several
 8people in the allied interrogation centres or internment
 9camps who had knowledge of this very delicate matter, and
10one of them had information that is the kind of
11information that the Allies wanted to hear, he would have
12been quite happy to shop his colleagues by turning it in
13in order to get an early release date?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is totally hypothetical. Which person are you
15talking about here who did that in relation to the
16Schlegelberger memorandum, and what is the evidence for
17it?
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was Gottfried Boley present?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, at the 6th March meeting. Indeed.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did he on September 14th 1945 -- I am now on the second
21paragraph of my page 12, my Lord -- describe Eichmann's
22uncouth behaviour at this conference and say how Eichmann
23used language about Jews being supplied like cattle or
24being shipped around? One man had objected, "one can't
25proceed against the Jews who behave correctly", and
26Eichmann's number 2 said, "that comes under our police

.   P-150



 1judgment". Is that a self-serving statement, do you
 2think, a man describing that the conference was conducted
 3in these uncouth terms?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think, if he had been really self-serving, he would not
 5have said not "one man", he would have said he protested.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but why did he have to put in these ugly details
 7about a conference that he attended?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     If I had been Boley and wanted to exculpate myself,
 9I would have that I was the man who objected. I would
10have said, "I said one cannot proceed against Jews that
11have behaved correctly, and I raise objections to all
12this," but he does not do that, does he?
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     His final statement on June 10th 1947 in the final
14paragraph, where he says that Kritzinger sent him to the
15conference, Eichmann was in the chair, there were 20 or 25
16participants, and he then testifies at this conference
17there was no talk of "really grim things", but of the
18preliminaries, the evacuation and sterilization.
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Exactly so.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     You have read those interrogations in full, have you not,
21or your researchers have?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     We have read them, yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did they find anything which contradicts the impressions
24he gives there?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Let us take one step back. The March 6th meeting was
26about so-called Mischlinge and Jews married to non-Jewish

.   P-151



 1Germans, and the discussions there, as I tried to
 2summarize them, when you asked me to earlier, Mr Irving,
 3were precisely about evacuations, sterilization,
 4preliminaries, presumably meaning legal, the passing of
 5laws to do with divorce, and so on. That seem to have
 6been fairly accurate.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not sure where this all goes, Mr Irving.
 8 MR IRVING:     I am trying to pin down what actually happened at
 9the conference and to find out whether the ambit of the
10conference is wider than just sterilization issues or
11whether it was on a broader field, whether really ugly
12matters were discussed and apparently they were not, and
13also to establish the credibility of these witnesses, in
14particular the first one, who says that afterwards
15somebody took the memorandum, Lammers took this minute to
16the Fuhrer and returned with precisely the wording of this
17memorandum, in fact, and here he is remembering it in June
181947 in very much the same terms as the document itself.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Why do you say that Boley was talking about
20the 6th March meeting in that little extract you have on
21your page 12? That could have been Wannsee, could it
22not?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     He was, my Lord.
24 MR IRVING:     It is all March 6th.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Why do you say that? Was this conference not
26at the RSH?

.   P-152



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not think Boley was at the Wannsee conference.
 2 MR IRVING:     I do not think he was either. No, he was not
 3there.
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     But he was at the March 6th conference and he is talking
 5about that. The point is once more that the minutes of
 6the March 6th conference are all about Mischlinge and Jews
 7in mixed marriages. Schlegelberger in his testimony in
 8his trial at Nuremberg said that is what the conference
 9was about, and the fall out from it in this set of
10documents is clearly about those questions.
11 MR IRVING:     Professor, if we can pause to draw breath here, one
12point that divides us on the Schlegelberger memorandum,
13apart from the possible discrepancy on the date, you think
14there may be a possibility it was 1941, is that you would
15believe that the Schlegelberger document refers only to
16the mixed race issue.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     And the bureaucratic red tape connected with that?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, if you date it to March 42.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     I say that the significance of the document shows a
21general reluctance on Hitler's part to be sucked into talk
22about the Final Solution?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, it is not that. Let us remind ourselves of what it
24says.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Lammers says the Fuhrer had repeatedly explained to him

.   P-153



 1that he wanted the solution of the Jewish question put
 2back until after the war. Now you have to ask yourself in
 3this context what does the solution, losung, of the Jewish
 4question, Judenfrager, in this memorandum actually mean?
 5It can mean one of three things. It can mean
 6extermination. Well, if Hitler is talking about
 7extermination being put back until after the war, he must
 8have known about the extermination at this point, and you
 9said, I think, that if Hitler knew about the extermination
10between the end of 1941 and October 1943, when you admit
11that he did know about it, then he would approved of it.
12I do not think it means that.
13     Then does it mean evacuation? Well, evacuation
14has already been going on. They started pushing the Jews
15out of Berlin the previous autumn, as we saw this
16morning. So why is he suddenly turning round now? Have
17people been disobeying him? That is an absurd supposition
18as well. So, if we date it to March 1942, the only
19reasonable context that a historian would put it in would
20be the series of discussions about Jews and mixed
21marriages, which comes under the general heading of
22solution of the Jewish problem, because it is one aspect
23of that.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     These are the theoretical discussions, are they not?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, all this stuff about the Mischlinge and so on,
26sterilization or other terrible things that they want to

.   P-154



 1do to them, they are saying it is too difficult
 2classifying people, perhaps there are too many problems,
 3we know it in early 1943, for example, when they finally
 4did try and deport the Jewish husbands of non-Jewish
 5German women from Berlin to Auschwitz, there was a mass
 6protest by these very brave women in public in Berlin ,
 7which stopped it, so there was a fear that this would
 8raise trouble. There are all kind of reasons why they
 9should have wanted, Hitler and others, this solution to be
10put off.
11     As I said, the Justice Ministry was particularly
12concerned about the legal implications of trying to deal
13with this. There were problems about the resource
14implications of having a mass sterilization programme.
15There were many reasons why they want to put this off.
16Decisions about what was going to be done about the great
17mass of Jews who were not in this situation were neither
18Mischlinge nor in mixed marriages, they had already been
19discussed at great length in the Wannsee conference.
20Indeed, what was left over from the Wannsee conference was
21precisely this problem, what to do with these marginal
22problematical minority groups.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I bring you down to earth now with the actual content
24of the memorandum? If we look at the second sentence,
25Lammers says in the first sentence, that the Fuhrer has
26repeatedly said he wants the solution to the Jewish

.   P-155



 1problem postponed until the war is over.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Pause there, Mr Irving. If you are right
 3that the Wannsee conference really decided on a policy of
 4extermination, which as I understand is what you say there
 5happened, that is a very odd thing to have somebody as
 6senior as Lammers saying.
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Indeed, my Lord, at this point.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     How do you explain it?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Because it is to do with -- the Jewish question here, he
10means the aspect of the Jewish solution to the Jewish
11question that has to do with the Mischlinge and the Jews
12in mixed marriages.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, I do not think that really would do.
14That is the gloss that Lammers is putting on it. He is
15saying in effective response to what is to be done about
16the Mischlinge, "well, the Fuhrer has consistently said
17postpone the solution until after the war". My question
18to you is, how could he really be saying that, if you are
19right about what had been decided at Wannsee, because
20Hitler would have known what was decided at Wannsee? And
21Lammers would have known too?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is one reason, my Lord, why I think that there is a
23strong possibility that this is dated from 1941.
24 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     But you accepted on balance of probabilities that actually
25it was likely to be 1942?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Because of where it is in the file, which means it was

.   P-156



 1selected by the Americans, or whoever selected it, to put
 2in this particular postwar file.
 3 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     So the only answer that you can really give to my point,
 4as it were, is, well, I put it back to 1941?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     If you think that "losung der Judenfrager" means the whole
 6package, as it were, then it is a deeply implausible thing
 7to be saying at this particular time because so much was
 8going on.
 9 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     That is really my point.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     There are so many uncertainties with this document. If
11you read that little note in the bottom left hand corner,
1217.7, that pushes it back to 1941, and then, on 17th July
131941, it is plausible to say that Hitler repeatedly said
14he wanted the whole solution put back until after the war,
15because he was saying that in other quarters and to other
16people.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I follow the point.
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You can follow this up through a chain of documents which
19I go into my report at this time in 1942, which are headed
20things like "gasuntlosung der Judenfrager" or "Losung der
21Judenfrager", which then consist entirely of material
22about the Mischlinge and the half Jews. So it is not
23entirely implausible whether he was giving this kind of
24meaning to the Mischlinge. I agree it is another
25problematical aspect of this document.
26 MR IRVING:     I think the basic problem, my Lord, if I can put it

.   P-157



 1like this, is that the whole operation of whatever the
 2Final Solution was is so ramshackle, and so multi-headed,
 3so hydra-like, that to try and systematise it in a law
 4court 50 or 60 years after the event on the basis of basis
 5of not complete documentation is a rather hopeless
 6undertaking. We all have to try and do the best we can.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I understand.
 8 MR IRVING:     Can I now go back to where I was in the
 9cross-examination?
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I am sorry.
11 MR IRVING:     I mean no criticism of your Lordship but I will
12start again and concentrate on that second sentence.
13After we looked at the first sentence, which says, Reich
14Minister Lammers informed me that the Fuhrer had
15repeatedly stated to him that he wants to know that the
16solution of the Jewish problem has been postponed until
17the war is over; therefore, or accordingly, rather, the
18present discussions in the opinion of Mr Lammers have
19purely theoretical value. What are the "present
20discussions"? That was the mixed race discussions, was it
21not? So therefore that cannot be what they are referring
22to about being postponed. It is the whole problem is
23being postponed because the mixed race discussions are
24referred to separately in the second sentence, saying for
25that reason, these other discussions about mixed races are
26going to have purely theoretical value. Do you see the

.   P-158



 1point I am getting at?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I see the point. I do not accept it. What I would
 3like to know is what do you think "the solution to the
 4Jewish question" means in this document?
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am sure that, if it had been said the other way round,
 6if it had been put, the Fuhrer has insisted that the
 7solution to the Jewish problem be pressed with the utmost
 8possible and radical speed, then you would have no
 9difficulty in telling me what you meant by that phrase,
10would you?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am just puzzled. You put it to me what you actually
12understand that phrase to mean, "the solution of the
13Jewish question"? What is it here that is being put back
14until after the war, if it is not the ----
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     The whole of this absurd doctrinaire business of plucking
16the Jews out of the arms factories, plucking the Jews out
17of their homes, putting them into scarce transport base,
18shipping them east and west, taking up scarce police
19forces to escort them, all this business, all the red tape
20that went with it, which was so pointless in the winter of
211941 to 1942, and Hitler is repeatedly saying in his
22ineffectual way, "why on earth are we doing this? We have
23a war on, fellows. Let us finish the war first and then
24tackle the problem".
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think the problem for the historian, Mr Irving, if you
26say that then it means the forced evacuation of Jews to

.   P-159



 1the East.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This had been going on for several months by this time, on
 4Hitler's orders, a fact that you have accepted many times
 5and in many places.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was it on Hitler's initiative, do you think, or was it
 7because people like Goebbels came nagging him, saying
 8"Mein Fuhrer, I want to get them out of Berlin, please
 9allow me to do that", and Hitler kept on saying, "Oh very
10well, Dr Goebbels"?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This relates to a whole set of other documents. It was
12Hitler's initiative. I think you have accepted many times
13that Hitler ordered the deportation of the Jews from
14Berlin, and subsequently elsewhere, beginning in the
15autumn of 1941.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     I think this is a very important and very useful
17discussion.
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     If it refers to that, then how can he possibly now
19suddenly in March 1942 turn around and say that he has
20repeatedly said that this should not happen? It goes
21against all the other documentation we have of Hitler's
22orders and Hitler's views on this matter.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     We do have a problem, do we not? We have, on the one
24hand, people like Goebbels and Himmler saying, do this,
25the Fuhrer has placed this order on my shoulder, the Reich
26is going to be emptied out of the Jews, all these

.   P-160



 1documents that you and I are familiar with. Yet here is a
 2document saying precisely the opposite, not just a mixed
 3race problem because that is in sentence two, saying
 4therefore the mixed race problem has purely theoretical
 5value.
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, it does not say that. It says, "according to the
 7present discussions", and discussions are on particular
 8policy proposals within the mixed race complex, that is to
 9say ----
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     March 6th?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, sterilization, or deportation, or laws to enforce
12divorce of mixed marriages, all these various things.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, I do not think we can extract very much more
14usefully.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Nor do I .
16 MR IRVING:     On this particular matter. Like so many issues, it
17is going to be left open, which does not harm my case one
18bit of course.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, I follow that.
20 MR IRVING:     I will just draw your Lordship's attention to two
21rather disturbing matters about the report that has been
22prepared by this witness on this matter at page 383.
23Professor Evans, will you look at the indented paragraph
24on page 383?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     You quoted testimony of Ficker. Just skim down to where

.   P-161



 1he says that the Fuhrer suggested postponement, line 5.
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     "Postponement for the time being of the whole problem,
 4i.e. what to do with half Jews and mixed marriages"?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you look at the German original and tell me if that
 7passage is in there?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No. That is why I provide the German original to make it
 9clear that that is my interpolation, my explanation.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Where does the reader find out that that is your
11interpolation if he is not going to check the German?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is there. That is why it is put there. It is to enable
13you to check the German, and anybody else.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you put it in round brackets or square brackets?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is in round brackets there. Sorry, that is a
16typographical -- I also have many other interpolations
17just to help the reader there. The minister being
18Lammers, the incorrect statement about the address and so
19on.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     So you did not wish us to assume that this was part of the
21original document then?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, how could I? It is quite clearly not there in the
23original that I quote. Otherwise, if I was hell bent on
24deceiving you, I would have put that in the original
25document, would I not, in the German?
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     I do not think you would do that, but you in your

.   P-162



 1scientific and academic texts insert helpful passages like
 2in square brackets or in round brackets?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It depends.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you elsewhere in this report insert square brackets?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am not sure I actually -- there is a square bracket
 6there. I mean it is not typographically very clean, I am
 7afraid.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. If you look at the following page now, please, the
 9second paragraph, you rather grandly say, "Further
10testimony by Ficker makes it clear that all that was
11discussed between Lammers and Hitler was the issue of half
12Jews and mixed marriages". That is a rather grand
13statement there to make with no kind of source reference
14because that is precisely what is at the root of this
15whole argument this afternoon, is it not, what was
16discussed between them?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This is his testimony on 20th December 1946.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Where do we know that? You just say "Further testimony by
19Ficker makes it clear".
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. It follows on. It is covered by the paragraph
21saying it is his testimony on the 20th December 1946.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     But you appreciate you have not given us any source
23reference for what that testimony is?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The source reference is down there. You can check it
25out. It is the interrogation on notes 36 and 37. It is
26quite clear that refers to that. You can check it up.

.   P-163



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     On page 386, line 2, you say that Hitler made tasteless
 2remarks about cross breeding between Jews and non-Jews.
 3Is that right?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     In Mein Kampf.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I said cross breeding and bastards, yes.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What is the point about that?
 8 MR IRVING:     I am wondering whether in fact a portion of the
 9Jewish community also do not argue against cross breeding
10between Jews and non-Jews. I am wondering whether he was
11not actually serving their interests in some odd kind of
12way. They also are against mixed marriages, is that not
13so, Professor.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am obviously missing the point. Let us go
15on.
16 MR IRVING:     On page 388, paragraph 27, you have a meeting under
17the heading "Endlosung der Judenfrager", and you say it
18was entirely devoted to the issue of half Jews and mixed
19marriages. Was that what the "Entlosung der Judenfrager"
20actually means, then? Is it just the mixed marriages and
21mixed races?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Certainly not, but it is the heading that they have used
23for this particular meeting.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. I am nearly finished with this particular meeting
25document. On page 389, paragraph 1, there is a little bit
26of mealy mouthed reporting here by you. You say the

.   P-164



 1detailed investigation by David Irving is wrong to claim
 2with certainty that the document was dictated by Franz
 3Schlegelberger in spring 1942.
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     In the very next sentence you say this is the most
 6convincing explanation.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No. I think you have the emphasis wrong.
 8Wrong to claim with absolute certainty. I think that is
 9the point that Professor Evans is making.
10 MR IRVING:     He still continues by saying this is the most
11convincing explanation.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, you are missing the point,
13I think. The criticism of you is not so much -- tell me
14if I am wrong about this -- that you have the
15interpretation of the Schlegelberger memorandum wrong,
16because I think Professor Evans probably would say it is a
17possible explanation, but I think the criticism is that a
18responsible, objective historian would indicate to the
19reader that it is not quite as crystal clear as your text
20suggests.
21 MR IRVING:     Perhaps I can ask a couple more questions to bring
22that out, my Lord.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Does that misrepresent your view?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It does, my Lord. What I am saying is that Mr Irving has
25used this document in his work to trumpet what he regards
26as Hitler's declaration that the Jews should not be

.   P-165



 1exterminated or evacuated, and he is in difficulties there
 2because, as I have already explained, if it means
 3exterminated, then Hitler must have known about it. But
 4any responsible historian who did not want to use it for
 5that particular biased purpose would inform the readers
 6that this is an extremely problematical document, that
 7because of its lack of dating, difficulties about its
 8provenance, uncertainties about who wrote it, who it was
 9addressed to, and so on and so forth, all the things that
10we have been through, should alert the reader to the fact
11there are a number of possible different interpretations
12and that, as we have seen in the discussion, almost any
13one of them actually throws up rather serious problems
14when you compare them with other documents. I think that
15would be the way that a responsible, objective historian
16would proceed. That is what I am saying.
17 MR IRVING:     Can I therefore draw your attention to my treatment
18of this very document in the Goebbels biography on page
19388 of the Goebbels biography?
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. That is exactly what I was looking
21for. Actually I was looking at Hitler's War.
22 MR IRVING:     I will not said I am sadder, but I am certainly
23wiser than when I wrote Hitler's War. I think the
24Goebbels one is the most up to date version of my state of
25mind. Page 388, paragraph 2. The treatment I give it is
26as follows: On the following day he took note of an

.   P-166



 1extensive report prepared by Heydrich's office, probably
 2on Wannsee conference. Was that accurate, do you think,
 3that Goebbels had received this report and it probably was
 4a summary of the Wannsee conference, in other words the
 5January 20 conference?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I would have to check. Does this really matter?
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     It does not really matter, no, but, if Goebbels received
 8it on March 5th or March 6th, I think this is the only
 9point there, there were still 11 million Jews in Europe.
10He dictated, Goebbels, summarizing the document, for the
11time being they are to be concentrated in the East until
12later, possibly an island like Madagascar can be assigned
13to them after the war. Undoubtedly there will be a
14multitude of personal tragedies, he added airily, but this
15is unavoidable. The situation now is ripe for a final
16settlement of the Jewish question. In a covering letter
17Heydrich invited Goebbels to a second conference on March
186th. Goebbels sent two of his senior staff. Eichmann
19talked crudely at this meeting of forwarding the Jews to
20the East like so many head of cattle.
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is Boley presumably, so you accept that there?
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     But you cast doubt on it a few minutes ago.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     No. I asked if it was a self-serving statement.
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You do not say it is a self serving statement there do
26you?

.   P-167



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     "The Ministry of Justice handled the report on this new
 2discussion like a hot potato". This is a reference to the
 3March 12th letter in which Schlegelberger asks Lammers "it
 4looks like ugly things are brewing, we are going to have
 5to take this up, you and me, before this goes to the
 6Fuhrer". The Reichschancellery referred it all to Hitler?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That relies on Ficker and I do not think that is an
 8accurate statement.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     "Hitler wearily told Hans Lammers that he wanted the
10solution of the Jewish problem postponed until after the
11war was over, a ruling that remarkably few historians now
12seem disposed to quote"?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. That is a complete misrepresentation of what we are
14calling the Schlegelberger memorandum.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     In what way is it a misrepresentation?
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do not let us go through it all over again.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     There is nothing weary about it. He did not tell
18Lammers. There was not a ruining. The Schlegelberger
19memorandum was not a ruling transmitted to the Ministry of
20Justice, otherwise why would the Ministry of Justice have
21gone ahead quite shortly afterwards and arranged for the
22Jews in State prisons to be taken out and sent off for
23extermination? It beggers belief that this is actually a
24ruling which then does not leave a paper trail, as you
25describe Hitler rulings doing, throughout the bureaucracy
26saying, oh, the Fuhrer has ordered that the solution has

.   P-168



 1to b e put off, hold it everybody, let us stop. The whole
 2thing goes on. It goes on in the Ministry of Justice
 3which is actually where this document comes from. It is a
 4completely incredible interpretation you are giving there.
 5 MR IRVING:     You have just referred to a subsequent decision to
 6take the Jewish prisoners out of prisons and send them to
 7be exterminated. Was that your word?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     And what is your source for that?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Let me have a look here. It is one of my arguments.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Your expert report pages 391 to 392, paragraph 4.
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     September 1942, you say a meeting between Himmler and the
14new Minister of Justice at which they decided on
15annihilation through labour. Have you given us the
16original document or the original German of that?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I cite it in the footnote there. The German is in
18footnote 51 about again the October 1942 note.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you provided the German for the phrase "annihilation
20through labour"?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Not there, no.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you hazard a guess at what the German was?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Vernichtung deutsche arbeit, yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     We have already seen on several occasions that the word
25"vernichtung" is not necessarily totally identical and
26equivalent to killing?

.   P-169



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think it means at this time in the war it is. I would
 2like you to provide me with information that it is not in
 3this context. It mostly is. "Vernichtung deutsche
 4arbeit", there is no doubt what that means. They are to
 5be worked to death. Tirak explains. He says: "The
 6judicial system can only contribute in small measure to
 7exterminating members of this race." He is talking about
 8the ----
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you tell us what word was used for exterminating?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is "ausrotten".
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     "Ausrotten". Are you going to accept that the word
12"ausrotten" is capable of all sorts, an entire spectrum
13of different shades of meaning?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Do we want to talk about "ausrotten" now?
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     No. I am going to deal with the Germans on that who know
16German.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I know German, Mr Irving, and I can tell you that by this
18time in October 1942 "ausrotten" means extermination.
19I would like to see documents where it does not from this
20period, and in this context, above all, that is what it
21means. I suppose the exact meaning is extirpation. But if
22you look ----
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you seen a document ----
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     If you look up in the Oxford English Dictionary you will
25find that extirpation means total destruction.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you seen a document from Himmler to Martin Bormann

.   P-170



 1dated February 1944 where Himmler is reporting on [German
 2spoken] in which Himmler rights to Bormann saying: [German
 3spoken]?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, but I think that depends on the context.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Ah.
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     In this context it means extermination. It is quite
 7clear. There is no doubt about it. Tirak is saying
 8that. What else does he mean?
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can it not just equally mean that we are going to take
10these people out of society?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No. They have already done that.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can it not equally well mean that we are going to send off
13to slave labour camps where in fact 1,000 of them were
14shortly shipped?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     He says there is no sense in conserving such persons for
16years on end in German prisons and penitentiaries.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     So we will send them off to work in slave labour camps
18until they drop?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is deliberate extermination of these people by giving
20them small rations and working them to death, such as
21happened in the concentration camp at Mounthausen which is
22the one mainly reserved for these people.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     You then say the police can take their measures or their
24steps free of the threat of legal persecution and you
25assume that these measures, these steps are also going to
26be killing?

.   P-171



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     At a time of grave manpower shortage in Germany they need
 3the slave labour they can get?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. This is the time when the mass extermination of the
 5Jews was at its height, some 20 thousand state prisoners
 6were taken out of the prisons with a very elaborate and
 7extremely well documented operation and handed over for
 8killing through labour. One should not fall into the trap
 9of supposing that the Nazi regime was a rational regime
10which devoted all its resources to winning the war. As
11I have already said, it regarded the war as a racial war
12in which the destruction, murder of the Jews and of other
13groups was part of the war effort.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think we are going round and round.
15 MR IRVING:     We are, my Lord. We are not getting further. It
16is the meaning of words again which I am not going to deal
17with this witness on.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Please do not. For reference only, unless
19you want to pick it up, reference in the transcript that
20is, it is page 464 of the 1991 edition of Hitler's War.
21I am not encouraging anyone to go to that.
22 MR IRVING:     My Lord the next item in the expert report would be
23the Goebbels diary entry of March 27th 1942, but I propose
24putting the report aside for the remaining three quarters
25of an hour and looking just at the rest of the documents
26in the chain. Professor Evans, do you have this bundle?

.   P-172



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Is this the green piece of paper?
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Shall we now, before forgetting to ask you
 3this, decide where it goes? I think somebody said J2.
 4Miss Rogers probably said J2, but I say again I have not
 5got a J2. I have said that many times.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     Your Lordship is in not in that.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sorry, Mr Rampton, but it does not help
 8any of us.
 9 MS ROGERS:     I am sorry about that, my Lord. I had always
10understood that your Lordship had a J1 and a J2.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No.
12 MS ROGERS:     Because the documents which have been produced on a
13daily basis I had thought were being put into separate
14tabs in, essentially, the Claimants' files, J1 and J2.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, well, not as far as I know.
16 MS ROGERS:     If they are not, we can provide your Lordship with
17a file -- we can give you an empty file now and perhaps we
18will update it.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That will do, except I probably ought to know
20what you have already put into J2. Anyway, can I have it
21for the moment?
22 MS ROGERS:     It will all be altogether, my Lord.
23 MR IRVING:     So the first one would be December 14th 1941, they
24are in roughly chronological order.
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Right.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Again this document is not strictly part of the chain, but

.   P-173



 1it is one that would probably be held against me, so
 2I thought it would be not unfair to include it in this
 3part.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Which document are you going to?
 5 MR IRVING:     December 14th, 1941.
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Rosenberg, yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am not going to spend very much time on this document.
 8Does your Lordship have the document?
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
10 MR IRVING:     Is this an aide memoir or note by Rosenberg having
11had a conversation with Hitler on December 14th 1941?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Professor, and what do you think is significant about this
14document in the context that we are talking about today,
15the Final Solution?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, he has, Rosenberg has previously made a speech where
17he has referred rather openly to the extermination of the
18Jews. I am trying to find a reference to it in my
19report. I am leafing back. Then there is a declaration
20of war on America on 11th December, and then Hitler gave a
21speech to the Gauleiter on 12th December where he made it
22quite clear that the entry of the Americans into the war
23had altered things. He spoke in an unusually open fashion
24about his famous prophecy, the 30th January 1939, being
25fulfilled. The war, he said, the extermination of the
26Jews would happen if the world war broke out, now the

.   P-174



 1world war is there ----
 2 MR IRVING:     When did he say that, in 1939 or ----
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- or on this occasion?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     He said -- the prophecy in 1939, he recalls that in his
 6speech.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     But in 1939 he said "vernichtung des Judentungs", did he
 8not, that word again?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No. We would have it look it up. I am not sure it is
10"des Judentungs".
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Take it from me that he says "vernichtung".
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, I will not take it from you, no. I am lost in my
13report now, I am afraid.
14 MR RAMPTON:     If the witness is looking for the Hitler speech of
1512th December 1941, it is on page 412 of his report.
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Thank you. I have just got there.
17 MR RAMPTON:     There is the Rosenberg reference as well.
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, it is the Rosenberg reference there.
19 MR IRVING:     Yes. Basically ----
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This is just after the ----
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Declaration of war.
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- first killings in Chelmno, and there are, this is the
23annihilation, the vernichtung -- where are we?
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     The destruction of Jewry?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This is right, this is the 12th December, and he says that
26the destruction of the Jews will, it will now happen

.   P-175



 1because it is the, because we have the war there. Then
 2there is the discussion, and Rosenberg now meets who is
 3responsible, the Minister responsible for the East,
 4Eastern areas, and says, I mean, that is the context and
 5he now says, "Well, I have discussed it with, on the
 6Jewish question", he talks then about the New York Jews,
 7and then he says, "I took the standpoint of not talking
 8about the extirpation of Jewry", the "ausrotten des
 9Judentungs". "The Fuhrer approved of this position and
10said, 'They had forced the war on us and they had brought
11destruction. It was no wonder if the consequences
12affected them first'."
13     So that, in other words, "Judentung" there
14refers quite clearly to "the Jews" because he goes on to
15talk about "they", and the context of this is your claim
16that he is talking about the stamping out of Judaism
17I think is the phrase you use in your book.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, I was just asking you what inferences you would draw
19from this document?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, the inference is that you have manipulated and
21falsified the document in your presentation of it, Mr
22Irving.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, I am asking you what inferences you will draw from
24the content of this document, rather than the way I have
25written about it in any way.
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The inference I would draw is that, the inference I would

.   P-176



 1draw are that Hitler is approving the notion, and
 2Rosenberg together are discussing the killing, mass
 3killing, of Jews, they think it is a good idea, but you
 4have got to keep it quiet.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Rosenberg is informed, of course, of the killings on the
 6Eastern Front?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     He knows what is going on, of course, yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     He is informed because we have just read yesterday the
 9letter to him on November 15th, a few pages earlier in
10this file, about seven pages earlier, from Lozer, who is
11the boss in Riga, who has asked him, "What are we
12supposed to be doing with the Jews? I cannot find
13anything in the brown file". Do you remember that one?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     So there is no directives, even in mid November, and now
16here on December 14th they are talking vaguely about the
17extirpation of the Jews, but there is still nothing
18specific being written down by anybody, even at this time,
19even by Rosenburg who is writing a private diary, he does
20not say, "Well, the Fuhrer says he is fully aware of what
21is going on and says, 'Keep on doing what is being done in
22Riga'." Why does nobody write anything down explicitly, I
23guess, Professor, this is what I am asking. Perfectly?
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I thought we had been through that, that is
25camouflage, is it not?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.

.   P-177



 1 MR IRVING:     Even in their own private diaries, my Lord, in
 2their own private papers?
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You have made that point, Mr Irving. I mean,
 4I have the point.
 5 MR IRVING:     I did say I was not going to spend very long on
 6that document. I will ask, however, about documents which
 7are not in this bundle. Are you familiar with the private
 8diary of Otto Brottigan(?)?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Otto Brottigan was, I think, the liaison officer between
11Rosenberg and the German Army High Command?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did Brottigan refer in September 1941 to a situation that
14had arisen because Stalin had rounded up all the so-called
15vulgar Germans and could they now not take reprisals on
16Jews?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     What was Hitler's response to that?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Can I see the document, please? I had better see it.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Where is the document?
21 MR IRVING:     It is not in any of the bundles. The witness has
22said he is familiar with the diary of Brottigan ----
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, but when we are going to discuss it in detail,
24I think I need to have it in front of me.
25 MR IRVING:     Did Hitler say, "Let us keep all these Jews alive
26as hostages to keep the Americans out of the war"?

.   P-178



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I would need to see the document, I am afraid, Mr Irving.
 2I do not mean to cause difficulties, but I really do find
 3it very difficult to discuss these things without having
 4it in front of me.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you, therefore, now -- we will abandon that.
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Is that a fair request, my Lord?
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     We will go on -- I just put to you the content of the
 8diaries, but if you do not want to ----
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I personally think that it is fair.
10 MR IRVING:     It is.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We have all been talking about context until
12we are blue in the face, and I think, you know, one is
13entitled to see the context.
14 MR IRVING:     Yes. It was a matter which occurred to me quite
15simply because the witness talked about the entry of
16America into the war.
17 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, I know, but I mean there is no dispute that
18up until Hitler declared war on the USA, which is one of
19the stupidest things he ever did, amongst others, there
20was no question about that there was some kind of a plan
21to keep the Jews as hostages to try to prevent the
22Americans joining the war. It failed partly, as I say,
23because Hitler made the mad decision to declare war on the
24United States, but there it is.
25 MR IRVING:     He had bad counsel, did he not?
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, I personally do not get much help from

.   P-179



 1that because if it is designed to show that Hitler was
 2merciful, it does not seem to do anything of the kind.
 3 MR IRVING:     Can we now move on to the handwritten document of
 418th December 1941?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Again very briefly. This is Himmler's notes originally
 7for a conversation with Hitler, the conversation to take
 8place at 4 p.m. on 18th December 1941. Do you have the
 9handwritten notes?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I do.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     In my bundle?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     In my little bundle?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I have it.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     On the left-hand side Himmler has written as one topic
16"Judenfrage"?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     "Jewish problem" -- unmistakable the word there because it
19is very clearly written?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     On the right in a slightly different handwriting, probably
22in his green crayon, he has written "als partisan" and
23"als surotten"?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     How do you translate that?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     "To be extirpated as partisans".

.   P-180



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, not "like partisans"?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, "as partisans". In other words, they are to be
 3treated, the Jews are to be treated as partisans and
 4killed. It is another of these, this rather thick, there
 5is a kind of thickening of documents from the documentary
 6record immediately after the declaration of war on
 7America, and this is one of the documents that follows
 8from that. Probably a fall out of Hitler's speech to the
 9Gauleiters on 12th December.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     On the following page but one, the next page but one, we
11have a table talk dated July 24th 1942?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     This is not from the Henry (sic) Heim table talks now,
14this is from the ----
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Heinrich Heim.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Heinrich Heim. I am sorry, before we do that one, can
17I direct your attention to one of the little documents
18I brought in this morning for you? Right at the end, it
19is typed in big typeface, it is a note on a conversation?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not think I have got it. It is a picture is the last
21one.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Two or three pages before that, you should find two pages
23typed in large typeface?
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Consisting of what?
25 MR IRVING:     Henrich Heim?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Henrich Heim.

.   P-181



 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think I have that.
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     1862 is the number on the top right-hand side of it. It
 3is in the small bundle beginning with the type, with a
 4kind of ----
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I have the bundle, but mine, obviously,
 6does not extend as far as everybody else's.
 7 MR IRVING:     In that case I will leave it then. It was purely
 8the man who did the table talks who had -- perhaps that
 9could be given? Do you have a copy of it, witness?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Right. Is this a memorandum drawn up by Henry Heim?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Heinrich Heim.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Heinrich Heim?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     1968.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Rather a long time after the war.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Does he describe a conversation that he records --
18was he the man who wrote Hitler's Table Talk?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     He was one of the three people who recorded Hitler's Table
20Talk, yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you look just briefly at the third page that is in
22front of you there which is another typescript page -- do
23you have it -- of an actual page of Hitler's table talk in
24German.
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, with a "page 4" on top?
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     I think so, yes.

.   P-182



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No. 4, yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     This is one of the Henry Heim table talks which ----
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Heinrich Heim, yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- he himself typed, is that right?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is Heinrich Heim and Henry Picker. You must not
 6confuse the two. Yes, it looks like it. There is no date
 7or anything on it.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     He was in a position to know things. He was at Hitler's
 9table or at the next door table writing notes during his
10table talk? That is what he did, is it not?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right, yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     He was the adjutant to Martin Bormann?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     In 1968, he remembers Adolf Hitler in December 1941, for
15what it is worth, and I throw that in and you will comment
16on that, does he not say: "I remember Hitler clearly
17saying in December 1941, 'I do not know what the Jews are
18complaining about. All I ask of them is that they go and
19do some good hard labour somewhere. I do not know even
20ask of them to go and serve in the armed forces'"?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you think that conversation took place or that remark
23was made by Hitler? He says there, "I forgot to write it
24down at the time"?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does he not? Would you attach any kind weight to that

.   P-183



 1remark?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I mean, not a great deal since Heim was a dyed in the wool
 3old Nazi who ----
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was he a war criminal? Was he arrested?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- was described by people who knew him as not really
 6living in the real world and always had this incredibly
 7rosy view of Hitler.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     He was Hitler ----
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This is about 40 years, nearly 40 years, after the event,
10and he is trying to tell everybody that Hitler cannot have
11known about Auschwitz. So I treat this with a certain
12degree of scepticism.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well it was not 40 years, was it? It was slightly less.
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     1941 to 1968.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. But if he had said that in ----
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Take off three years, if you like.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- a German court of law at or about the same time there
18were numerous trials going on that had been quoted by the
19expert witnesses in their footnotes of German trials in
20the 1970s, so it is not impossible -- he says that this
21remark does keep coming back to him. He keeps on
22remembering it, does he not? Hitler having said, "I do
23not know what the Jews are complaining about. I just want
24them to be sent off to do hard work. I am not even asking
25them to go and fight in the armed forces"?
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, just so that I am clear, you rely

.   P-184



 1on that as being Hitler's state of mind at this time?
 2 MR IRVING:     According to this source ----
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No. My question was you rely on this
 4document as establishing that that was, indeed, Hitler's
 5state of mind?
 6 MR IRVING:     As far as I think the German Jews are concerned,
 7yes. I do not think Heim is specific about which Jews he
 8is talking about. I do not think he is throwing in all
 9the wretched Jews in the Russian cities who have fallen
10into German hands. It is a document in the Institute of
11History. It is in their archives. They have conducted
12several interviews with Heim and, for what it is worth, I
13have put it in as yet another indication that the people
14who were close to Hitler never heard him saying anything
15different. On some occasions they heard him say things
16like this. Now, we ----
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I mean, it is difficult to digest this, just having
18first seen it. I mean, I would not place a great deal of
19credence on this ----
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am sorry you have just seen it. It has been in
21discovery for about 18 months.
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- on this document. Well, it is just not a very
23convincing document. It may well be that Hitler made some
24kind of cynical remark like this, that Jews -- he was
25always saying the Jews had reason to be grateful to him.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.

.   P-185



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     All he wanted from them is work. But I think that is just
 2a cynical remark ----
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- in the winter of 1941 to '42 and it does not ----
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Professor, I think you may very well be right, you may
 6very well be right.
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It does not support the rather kind of romantic things
 8that he goes on to say about Hitler later in the document.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you now look to a table talk written, not by Heim or
10probably not by Heim, but by Henry Picker who succeeded
11him?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     July 24th 1942?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Right.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is the end of the first ----
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Sorry, this is your -- you are still on page 4, is it?
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am sorry, it is in my bundle ----
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Ah, yes, your bundle.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- of my chain of documents?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I have that.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     At the end of the first full paragraph ----
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- is Hitler quoted as saying: "After this war is over"
24-- there is that phrase again, is it not -- "after this
25war is over" ----
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.

.   P-186



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- "I am going to stand rigorously on the standpoint that
 2I am going to knock these cities' heads together", if you
 3can put it like that, "if the Jews don't come out and we
 4get rid of them to Madagascar or some other Jewish
 5national state"?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you detect there two lines that I have been constantly
 8putting to this court, first of all, the tendency of
 9Hitler to postpone things until after the war is over and,
10secondly, the tendency for a geographical solution rather
11than for a homicidal solution, if I can put it like that?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     What I detect there, Mr Irving, is pure camouflage by
13Hitler. He is telling a group of people at dinner this
14complete porky pie about wanting to send them off to
15Madagascar. It is 24th July 1947, the time when the
16extermination programme is already in full swing. The
17camps at Belzec, Sobibor and Auschwitz are already in
18operation, Treblinka had just got its first contingent,
19and on 10th February 1942 there is a Foreign Office
20document who, in fact -- in which the official had first
21proposed the Madagascar plan, many months earlier than
22this document, says that the Fuhrer has decided that the
23Jews should be pushed off, not to Madagascar, but to the
24East. Madagascar, therefore, does not need to be foreseen
25for the Final Solution any more.
26     So, on his own orders, the plan had been

.   P-187



 1abandoned in February, and here he is spinning this kind
 2of smoke screen, to use your phrase, about it in his
 3circle of acquaintances and officers and so in July 1942.
 4So I think this is a ----
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     So he is living in cloud cuckoo land then, is he not?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, he is deliberately trying to deceive his audience.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Or living in cloud cuckoo land?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, deliberately trying to deceive his audience.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, your sentence that he is deliberately trying to
10deceive presupposes that you can produce evidence that he
11knew precisely what was going which is what we have been
12searching for for several weeks.
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, I do not think -- there is plenty of evidence,
14Mr Irving.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     I think we have dealt with that document now. Can we now
16just go on to the next one which is July 28th 1942? It is
17a white on black document. This is a document that you
18yourself also quote, do you not?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes -- if I can find it.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mine is almost illegible and in German?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, mine is very difficult to read.
22 MR IRVING:     I am only relying on the first paragraph, my Lord,
23and I will read it out to you in English, if I may?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is what worries me.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     There should be a dark version and a light version.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have only got a -- no, wait a minute, no.

.   P-188



 1Actually, you are quite right. There is a page in between
 2in my clip.
 3 MR IRVING:     Obviously done at some ungodly hour in the morning.
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     July 1942.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Anyway, what is it and what are we ----
 6 MR IRVING:     It is an interesting one because it is talking
 7about -- this is Himmler writing to Berger, General
 8Berger, SS General Berger, right?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     [German] Berger. On July 28th 1942, which is an
11interesting period, is it not?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     In fact, it is a Top State Secret document, highest
14classification. Is Himmler saying to Berger responding to
15his minutes or memoranda: "I urgently ask you that there
16should be no kind of ordinance about what the word 'Jew'
17is, the meaning of the word 'Jew'. With all these stupid
18determinations, we are just tying our own hands".
19     Then he continues, does he not, by saying: "The
20occupied Eastern territories are going to become free of
21Jews. The execution of this very grave or burdensome
22order has been placed on my shoulders by the Fuhrer"?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     "Nobody can take that responsibility off me in
25consequence"?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.

.   P-189



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     "So I forbid anybody to interfere".
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     And "What can we" ----
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can you put how you rely on that document?
 5 MR IRVING:     I was going to ask the witness, Professor Evans,
 6what interpretation would you place on that, that "The
 7Fuhrer has given me the job, placed on my shoulders a job
 8of rendering the occupied Eastern territories free of the
 9Jews"?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, well, we are talking about July 1942, as I have said,
11when the death camps were already in full swing. There
12are large numbers of Jews from the occupied territories
13are being gassed in Belzec, Sobibor and Auschwitz,
14Treblinka, and so on. So I think, given that context, it
15clearly means that the Fuhrer has told Himmler to kill the
16Jews in the occupied Eastern territories.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is how you would read between the lines of that
18document?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It does not require too much reading between the lines.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is not actually in the document, though. You are
21entitled to do this; as an historian, you are entitled to
22extrapolate, are you not?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, it is not a very grand extrapolation, given the
24context of what was going on at the time.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but in view of the fact that this is precisely what
26we are trying to determine here, we had to be a bit

.   P-190



 1careful how far we allow ourselves to extrapolate.
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think that is a legitimate extrapolation.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     In fact, all the document says is: "The Fuhrer has told me
 4to clean the Jews out of the occupied Eastern territories
 5and" ----
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, he does not say that, Mr Irving.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, it says "will become free of Jews" and
 8that can either mean "free" because they are being booted
 9into the further East or murdered.
10 MR IRVING:     Oh, indeed, yes.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is difficult to say that they could be booted further
12East because that is where the Red Army was, the battle
13front.
14 MR IRVING:     Did large numbers of the Jews find themselves being
15booted over the Euro mountains? Have we seen documents in
16that connection?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not believe we have.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, we have, but, was that not much
19earlier?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Have we?
21 MR IRVING:     Or taking flight?
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     100,000 going over the Eurols?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right, yes. I have not seen that.
24 MR RAMPTON:     That was in September 1941.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is why I said I thought it was rather
26earlier.

.   P-191



 1 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, and they were not booted, they ran.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, "booted" was a colloquialism.
 3 MR IRVING:     Can we now turn the page? I am making progress as
 4rapidly as I can, my Lord, as you will see. We are making
 5huge progress.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not want slow you down, but can you put
 7what you say the right interpretation of this is,
 8Mr Irving, to the witness?
 9 MR IRVING:     My Lord, your Lordship will know precisely what
10I am going to say, that one should not go further than
11what the document actually says, and that one should say
12what the document says and leave the reader to form their
13own conclusions.
14 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, I cannot accept that.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think I can.
16 MR RAMPTON:     This is a document which plainly shows, unless
17Himmler is lying, that Himmler has been given an order --
18"order" is the word he uses I think.
19 MR IRVING:     Yes.
20 MR RAMPTON:     A very difficult order by Hitler to make sure that
21the occupied Eastern territories are going to be or are
22becoming free of Jews. Now the question Mr Irving has to
23grapple with and put to this witness is where were they
24going? Were they still going to Madagascar, is my
25question?
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think that articulates rather better than

.   P-192



 1I did what I was really inviting you to do, which is to
 2say -- I mean the Defendants say this is quite an
 3incriminating document. I think if your case is, Mr
 4Irving, that it is not an incriminating document you
 5should explain, or not explain, put to the witness why
 6not. Do you follow me?
 7 MR IRVING:     My Lord, you know my method. I will churn around
 8inside a document as long as I can before moving on to the
 9next document which makes the point I am about to made,
10which I will now do, if I may.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If that is really right then that is fair
12enough. The next document?
13 MR IRVING:     The next document is the document headed in
14handwriting at the top right-hand corner September 1942.
15It is typed.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Not in my bundle.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Not in mine. Is this NG2586? I have the one.
18 MR IRVING:     Does this appear to be a typed transcript of the
19same kind of agenda for discussion with Hitler, as we have
20previously seen in December 1941?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, indeed.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     The tentative date 17th September 1942, but it might have
23been 22nd. Is paragraph (iv) headed "Volkestung" which
24I suppose is nationalities and settlement?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Races I think.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Race and settlement?

.   P-193



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Race and settlement.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is the first topic "Juden auswandern"?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     How would you translate that "Juden auswandern"?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Jewish emigration.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does he then ask the question which he is going to ask
 7Hitler: How should we carry on or continue?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Then there is a tick indicating that, yes, they did
10discuss it?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Then the next line says: The settlement of the district of
13Lublin. They are looking at various people who they can
14send there, the people from Lorain, Germans from Bosnia?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     And so on. They are going to discuss this with this
17Globos. Who is Globos?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is a nickname for Globocnik.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Who was the Police Chief in Lublin, is that right?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     What kind of conclusions can we draw from these admittedly
22very sketchy notes by Himmler on a talk with Hitler, or
23for a talk with Hitler? Is this more camouflage?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is difficult. It is an extremely cryptic remark.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     "Auswandern" is that another euphemism?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It would seem to be at this point in September 1942

.   P-194



 1I think certainly a euphemism. The basic point is that
 2they are talking about moving. I mean, the Nazis,
 3particularly Himmler and his agencies, had this grand
 4scheme of resettling Eastern Europe and moving ethnic
 5Germans from other parts of Europe in there, and what he
 6has here under 2 is settling the Lublin area with what
 7they classify as ethnic Germans from Lorain, Bosnia and
 8Bessarabia. Of course the point here is that, in order to
 9move them in and create space for them, Jews were moved
10out by being deliberately exterminated. That is really
11the connection between those. It seems that in the
12previous couple of days there was a conference in which
13Himmler had taken part on a kind temporarily agreeing to
14keep a small number of Jews on to work, as in indeed
15everyone will be familiar from the film Schindlers List.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     So, do you translate "Juden auswandern" as murdering the
17Jews?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, translated as Jewish emigration, but it would seem to
19me at this time in the war that it really means killing.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     This is another ----
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sorry, Mr Irving, I am bit a puzzled
22about that because "auswandern" is an odd word to use,
23even if it is a euphemistic.
24 MR IRVING:     It is not the usual word used as a euphemism. They
25use "Evakuierung", do they not? That has a sinister
26connotation.

.   P-195



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     "Auszedlum" is another word they use. There is a whole
 2battery of euphemisms that they use.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you seen "auswandern" used before as a euphemism? I
 4do not want to hang too much importance on this.
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Obviously not.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     How would you translate "auswandern"?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Emigration.
 8 MR IRVING:     Literally "emigration", wandering abroad, wandering
 9out. It is not one of the regular catalogue of euphemisms
10which with we have become familiar.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This again at the absolute height of the mass murders, the
12mass gassings, the mass shootings, all over this part of
13Europe, and it really I think beggars belief to think that
14they are simply talking some other nice kind of emigration
15somewhere to Madagascar or somewhere like that. I think
16this is talking about killing.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is a terrible problem, is it not, that we are faced
18with this tantalizing plate of crumbs and morsels of what
19should have provided the final smoking gun proof, and
20nowhere the whole way through the archives do we find even
21one item that we do not have interpret or read between the
22lines of, but we do have in the same chain of evidence
23documents which are quite clearly specifically shown
24Hitler intervening in the other sense?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I do not accept that at all. It is because you want
26to interpret euphemisms as being literal and that is what

.   P-196



 1the whole problem is. Every time there is a euphemism,
 2Mr Irving, or a euphemistic or a camouflage piece of
 3statement or language about Madagascar, you want to treat
 4it as being the literal truth, because it serves your
 5purpose of trying exculpate Hitler. That is part of the
 6problem of the way in which you manipulate and distort the
 7documents.
 8 MR IRVING:     We know I am a manipulator and distorter, we have
 9established that point.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can I just ask question? Am I right in
11thinking that at this time, which is, is it September
121942?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     There was still what I think somebody described as
15deghettoization going on, namely Jews were being taken
16from cities in the East within the German jurisdiction and
17transported to concentration camps?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     To be killed, yes. At this time there seem to have been
19about 300,000 Jews in the General Government left alive
20out of about 2.3 million of the original.
21 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     So that was still going on?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     So this was going on right through this time. If one
23looks back in Dienskalendar to 18th July 1942, that is the
24point at which Himmler had given the original order to
25resettle ethnic German in the Lublin area, and he said to
26make room for them: "The Jews must finally disappear from

.   P-197



 1the town", so the two processes are directly connected and
 2the disappearance there again is another not so
 3mealymouthed euphemism for sending them off to be gassed
 4or shooting them.
 5 MR IRVING:     What makes you think that "Juden auswandern" refers
 6only to the generalgouvernenent? It might equally refer
 7to France or any of these countries where they were
 8carrying out these inhuman measures.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But they were not going westwards any of
10them, were they, at this time?
11 MR IRVING:     It does not say. It just says emigrating.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is not your case that Jews were moving
13en bloc in a westerly direction?
14 MR IRVING:     This is Himmler going to Hitler with that word
15written in his calendar saying: "Emigration of the Jews.
16How are we going to carry on? How are we going to proceed
17with this?"
18 MR RAMPTON:     I am sorry to intervene, but this is all rather
19odd to my mind, the possibility of that the Jews were
20going to West to East, from France, Austria goodness knows
21where.
22 MR IRVING:     We do not know where they are going.
23 MR RAMPTON:     No, but if they are emigrating from, let us say,
24France to a death camp in Poland, it is perfectly logical.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Was that happening at this time, Professor
26Evans?

.   P-198



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     European Jews?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     What one might call non-German European Jews?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     September 1942.
 6 MR IRVING:     But it might perfectly well be somebody saying,
 7"Well, why don't we have them all sent to French North
 8Africa", because at that time that had not been invaded,
 9Operation Torch had not happened.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I find that somewhat unlikely, Mr Irving ----
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     All that I am looking at ----
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- in view of the fact there is this mass extermination
13going on in the area, for which Globocnik was responsible
14at this very time. The fact it was discussed with
15Globocnik quite clearly means that this part of the
16package of things that was discussed, if have the man who
17is actually responsible for this involved.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Was Globocnik involved in transportation as
19opposed to extermination?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     He was the Police Chief for the area, so he was involved
21in all of these things.
22 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     So he was both.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
24 MR IRVING:     He was obviously involved in the resettlement of
25the Lublin district, as is shown by the reference in this
26connection.

.   P-199



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, bringing these people in.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     I will just ask the question once more. Have you seen the
 3word "auswandern" used anywhere as a euphemism where it is
 4clearly so, used as camouflage, on any other occasion?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not recall it having been, that does not mean to say
 6it is not so used, but, as I say, they used a whole
 7variety of euphemisms.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     We will very rapidly turn the page, and 10th December, we
 9now have the abshafen of the Jews from France.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     We have dealt with this. I am just going to look, not at
12the numbers here, but do you agree the figures of 600 to
13700,000 are not accurate for France as far as Jews are
14concerned?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, because I think this probably included the French
16colonies.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     How would the Germans get their hands on the Jews in the
18French colonies?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You just said that they were thinking about sending Jews
20to Madagascar. That is one of them.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you familiar with the fact that on 8th November 1942
22the first major Anglo-American amphibious invasion
23operation had taken place and that the French North of
24West Africa was the target of that, and so there had been
25a major change in the geographical situation before this
26conference took place?

.   P-200



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right. Just before this conference, a few weeks
 2before South of France was occupied by axis troops. This
 3is at a point when the transports of Jews from France had
 4already begun. It began in the early Spring 1942 directly
 5to Auschwitz and carried on through the Summer. About
 613,000 Jews were arrested in Paris in July. Transports
 7then began from the Vichy region. The background to this
 8is the fact that they have now got control over the whole
 9of France and they are not reliant on the Vichy government
10any more. So in the following February more transports in
11considerable number began to Auschwitz and Sobibor.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Very briefly, you will find on those two pages of December
1310th 1942 that two words were used for how the Jews were
14going be moved on disposed of: Abshafen on one document
15in Himmler's handwriting, and in the typed memorandum he
16then says they are going to be abtransportiered?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you like to tell the court what your conclusions are
19from the use of those two words?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This first document is just Himmler's own private note, is
21that right?
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The second one is a document for circulation.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is the typed version which then was generated after that?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. So he is, in other words, using a euphemism in the
26document that has to be circulated, and being more

.   P-201



 1explicit in his own notes.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     How would you translate "abshafen?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     " Abolish.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     To dismiss, to abolish and to remove, is that right?
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think you accepted earlier on that did mean
 6liquidate, Mr Irving.
 7 MR IRVING:     No, my Lord, not necessarily.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving's translation is no more helpful, except
 9of course than perhaps "abolish". He accepted, it is
10somewhere in one of his books, the translation "dispose
11of".
12 MR IRVING:     Yes.
13 MR RAMPTON:     I do not know about in German, but in English it
14is difficult to apply that to people, unless it has an
15entirely sinister sense.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think that may be what I had in mind.
17 MR IRVING:     If we then go to the next document, the third
18document in this series which is dated just December 1942,
19you agree that here Himmler is contacting Muller and
20saying there is going to be a special camp set up to house
21valuable Jews from France and other nationalities, is that
22right?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, this is a scheme, is an order by Himmler that
24Hungarian, Romanian and French Jews stay together, all
25those who have influential relations in America should be
26put in a special camp, and he sees a number of about

.   P-202



 110,000 for this special camp of the wealthy Jews from
 2these three countries who have influential relations in
 3America. They have got to work there, but he adds the
 4unusual condition that they have to work under conditions
 5which keep them alive and healthy.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Good for him. So it is a rather different matter. Yes,
 8that is what it says.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Because I am sure when we come to be questioned about the
10Kinna document we are going to find out that the Jews were
11regarded as being a less preservable species in camps,
12were they not? There was less importance attached to
13keeping them alive?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, this is a very special category of a rather small
15minority. One would guess maybe that this document came
16before the outbreak of war with America. It is difficult
17it say, but this is the hostage idea again I think.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, this document is December 1942, is it not?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. There is no day though on it.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     There is no day. It is just the month, my Lord.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, bottom left.
23 MR IRVING:     My Lord, the only other document I am going to look
24at in the chain is October 1943.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Looking at the chain for what purpose, Mr
26Irving, can you remind me? It is so long since we started

.   P-203



 1it I cannot remember.
 2 MR IRVING:     The chain started off as the chain of documents
 3showing Hitler acting in a benevolent manner, holding out
 4his hand to protect categories of Jews.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I thought that was probably the answer.
 6 MR IRVING:     But occasionally other documents I have put them
 7into it out of straightforward fairness to Mr Rampton,
 8because I thought that otherwise he will say: Well, what
 9about this and what about that?
10 MR RAMPTON:     And he is still going to say that.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Let me comment there, the second document about the
12special camp for wealthy Jews from three countries with
13relations in America, it does not actually involve Hitler
14at all. This is an idea of Himmler's.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Anyway, it rather suggests that the other
16Jews are not going to have such a happy fate.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am afraid it does, my Lord, yes, particularly where he
18says they have to be kept in work camps under conditions
19that keep them alive and healthy, which suggests that is
20rather unusual.
21 MR IRVING:     Was this a time when there were major epidemics
22raging in the camps? In other words, this is not just
23simply saying that you have to take great care that no
24epidemic breaks out in this camp?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is not just that. They are saying they are not to be
26worked to death and special care is to be taken that they

.   P-204



 1do not die of epidemics, unlike the rest of them is the
 2implication. This is a very special category of people we
 3are talking about here, with rich relations, influential
 4relations in America.
 5 MR IRVING:     My Lord, all Mr Rampton has indicated he is not
 6going to discuss the Roman Jews, because it is part of my
 7chain I just want to spend the remaining five minutes
 8looking at the two documents on that, if I may.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Because this is the case where you say Hitler
10intervened to save them?
11 MR IRVING:     As you will see, my Lord, yes, again under very
12similar circumstances.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Right.
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     My Lord, if we are going to discuss this we will have to
15discuss it at length, I fear. I understood we were going
16on to half past 4 today?
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Just pause for a moment, Mr Irving.
18 MR IRVING:     I am shaking my head.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I follow that. What have you managed to do
20about Monday?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am able to come. I have made arrangements to come on
22Monday.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I see. I see why you say that, because the
24Roman Jews are quite complicated.
25 MR IRVING:     Shall we leave it until Monday then?
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am inclined to have a go.

.   P-205



 1 MR IRVING:     Have a stab at it now and see if we can deal with
 2it.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Have you rather put them to the back of your
 4mind because they seem to have not really featured in the
 5case?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I thought we were not going to discuss these.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The position is Mr Rampton has not relied on
 8it, but that does not stop Mr Irving reintroducing that
 9issue. If you say you need to bone up on it?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I am happy to do it now.
11 MR IRVING:     I certainly rely on them.
12 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving does. He may be making a mistake there,
13because he does not know the reason why I decided not to.
14That is his privilege to put his foot in his mouth, if
15that is what is going to happen. I do not know. I do
16worry that it may take more than a quarter of an hour
17though, because it is quite complicated.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am quite keen to use up all the available
19time, because I am anxious to get Professor Evans out of
20the box on Monday.
21 MR IRVING:     I can promise definitely that I will do everything
22I can to have him out of the box. We now have reached
23October 1943 which is of course, as far as I am concerned,
24the watershed and Hitler's knowledge.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     True, but remember Mr Rampton may have some
26re-examination.

.   P-206



 1 MR IRVING:     I will leave him more than enough time for that
 2I am sure.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Shall we be open about it, because I am quite
 4happy to adjourn now if we are sure we will get Professor
 5Evans out of the box.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     I can speak only about my re-examination at the
 7moment which consists of but two topics.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So it may be an hour, an hour and a half?
 9 MR RAMPTON:     Nothing like that. It may be half an hour, maybe
10three-quarters of an hour.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Are you reasonably confident?
12 MR IRVING:     Totally confident and, if not, then it is my own
13fault.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I would not want to leave it on that basis.
15Then I think let us adjourn now.
16 MR IRVING:     I think we have broken through the barbed wired.
17We are right through the mine field now and we are out in
18the open desert and our guns are blazing.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I had forgotten about the Roman Jews as
20well. So we are not sitting tomorrow, but Monday at 10.30
21 < (The witness stood down)
22(The Court adjourned until Monday, 21 February 2000).
23
24
25
26

.   P-207



  

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