Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 22: Electronic Edition

Pages 6 - 10 of 207

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    Is there any evidence whatsoever that I have had that book
 1or used that book or relied on that book in any degree?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, because in footnote -- I mean, you are really
 3splitting hairs here, Mr Irving ----
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     No, I am talking about your paragraph No. 6.
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     If you will allow me to answer the question, please? It
 6is only two minutes into this and you are already
 7interrupting me, Mr Irving. As I have said, you have in
 8your discovery, in the documents you made available to the
 9Defence, some articles by Ingrid Weckert with pencil
10margin lines, presumably by yourself. These articles went
11together to form a book, though that, I mean, the articles
12in the book are, essentially, the same thing.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     I think it would be useful if we, therefore, have a look
14at this article that I am supposed to have done with the
15alleged pencil lines on it. It is in bundle H1 (vi). Do
16you have that?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not have that here.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Before you do, Mr Irving, can I be clear why
19we are doing this? Is it to show that she is not an
20anti-Semitic propagandist?
21 MR IRVING:     No, my Lord, it is because I have repeatedly been
22accused in this report of relying on an inaccurate book
23and of drawing pencil marks in an article to indicate that
24I have relied on the article. First of all, we are
25dealing with the book. I have asked him to say, is there
26any evidence at all that I have even had the book in my

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 1possession and, of course, there is not. So everything he
 2says about the book is totally irrelevant.
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am sorry, Mr Irving. I have already explained twice why
 4it is not irrelevant.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     He says, Mr Irving -- he may be wrong, but
 6what he says is that the articles you do quote or cite are
 7really regurgitated in the book. Is that what you are
 8saying, Professor Evans? I do not know whether it is
 9right or wrong.
10 MR IRVING:     Can I draw your attention ----
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, not simply regurgitated.
12 MR IRVING:     Can I draw your Lordship's attention to footnote
13160 which is one typical example where the witness says:
14"The testimony of Naumann, discussed later in this
15Report, is taken over by Irving from Weckert, but only
16mentioned in her book".
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Not in the two articles by her which he has included in
18his discovery.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you ----
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     But this is also, Mr Irving, I mean, in your account of
21the Reichskristallnacht, you have concealed where you get
22your material from. You cite simply "the author Ingrid
23Weckert" or "Ingrid Wecker" without giving a precise
24reference to where your material comes from. If one looks
25at some of the more extraordinary assertions you make in
26your account of the Reichskristallnacht, they occur in

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 1Ingrid Weckert's work and it is a fair inference that you
 2have derived from her.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     But you have stated specifically ----
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am not saying that you take over all of her
 5extraordinary ideas, but you take over some.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     To cut the matter short, can we accept, can we agree that
 7you now accept that I have not used her book?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, you cannot.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     He has just said the opposite.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have already explained three times that the articles are
11substantially the same as the book.
12 MR IRVING:     But you criticise me for what is in her book and
13I have asked you to agree that I have never had her book?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Let us have a look at some ----
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     This should be a matter briefly disposed of.
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- let us have a look at some of the ideas. I mean, this
17is all extremely vague at the moment.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     First of all, can you point to the pencil lines on the
19article to which you refer?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Right, well, can you refer me to the page, please?
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is page 646 of bundle H1 (vi).
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     600 and?
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     46. That is where it begins I believe. H.
24 MR RAMPTON:     It may be your Lordship will find it in L2.
25 MR IRVING:     H1 (vi) is the copy that I have used.
26 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. That may be, but what is it called?

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This is Kristallnacht 1938, the great anti-German
 2spectacle, and this may be taken directly from the journal
 3and not ----
 4 MR RAMPTON:     I do not know. Your Lordship will find it in L2
 5at tab 6.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you very much.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     Without the pencil marks, I think.
 8 MR IRVING:     Without pencil marks?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Without pencil marks.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     What is the point of putting in a footnote 162, see the
11pencil lines, if we cannot see the pencil lines?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You deny that there are pencil lines, Mr Irving.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am asking you to show them to us.
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Could I have the original copy, then, please?
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     I have just given you the reference. It is H1(vi) 646.
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, the original.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     So we have now established that I did not use the book?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, Mr Irving.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We have not established that.
20 MR IRVING:     I am not getting a clear answer from the witness,
21my Lord.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not sure what it is I am looking at in
23L2. Is this extract from the book or one of the articles?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is an article.
25 MR IRVING:     It is not the reference I gave. The reference
26I gave was H1 (vi) 646, which is the way the documents

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 1were given to me?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is the same.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, I am bound to say I do not really
 4find this terribly helpful. The nub of the criticism,
 5I will say it again, is that you have used and cited as a
 6source for events succeeding Kristallnacht a lady who is
 7alleged by this witness to be worthless as a historian and
 8an anti-Semite. You have various answers to that. Either
 9you can say I think she is a serious historian and you can
10put to the witness why, or you can say that the material
11you cited has no signs of any anti-Semitism, but really
12burrowing through the documents to see whether there are
13pencil sidenotes on an article seems to me to be a waste
14of time.
15 MR RAMPTON:     I have the original discovery copy and it has lots
16of pencil marks on it, or what appear to be copies of
17pencil marks, to be exact.
18 MR IRVING:     Can I take you to the little bundle of documents?
19We will jump several stages in this case, my Lord.
20Towards the end of the little bundle of documents probably
21on the second page ----
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Sorry, you will have to tell me which little bundle, Mr
23Irving. I have plenty here.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     The one I gave you this morning.
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Let me try and find it. Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     

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