Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 22: Electronic Edition

Pages 51 - 55 of 207

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is not an exact parallel but there are similarities.
 2The 30th November telephone call concerns one particular
 3train load of Jews. That is quite clear.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sorry to interrupt. I had better have a
 5photocopy from somebody of that page because it obviously
 6has more than I have at the moment.
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     We are back to 30th November.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
 9 MR IRVING:     My Lord I will provide you with a photocopy of the
10facsimile, but also with a typescript copy.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That would be kind.
12 MR IRVING:     Because the handwriting is, as we have discovered,
13sometimes prone to misreading.
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right, on page 278.
15 MR IRVING:     Page 278?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     13.30 Jew transport from Berlin. No liquidation. And
17then 14.30 to 1600, lunch with the Fuhrer.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Can you keep that page roughly open because we are
19now going to go on to the December 1st item.
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Right.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Professor Evans, have you misread any words in preparing
22your expert report for this case?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I hope not, but one can never be entirely sure.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     As you have said yourself many times ----
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     These things happen?

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     -- one always makes errors and one does one's best to
 2correct them. That is why I sent you an 18 page list of
 3corrections and amendments to my report on 10th January.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you agree that mostly misreadings are quite
 5innocuous and have no serious consequences?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I hope that is true of mine. I do not believe that is
 7true of yours.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you remember The Spectator letter where the omission of
 9the one word "as" totally reversed the meaning of that
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We have been through that.
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not think that was my misreading.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We are more concerned with the criticisms of
14you, rather than the criticisms you make of Professor
15Evans. I understand why you make them, but let us focus
16on the point. I know the arguments now.
17 MR IRVING:     It is a little bit more colour and flourish to the
18argument about to develop, my Lord. Would you agree that
19a historian who sits in a book lined cave taking printed
20books off shelves, like the Himmler diary in front of you,
21with a nice index and photographs and beautifully bound,
22is less likely to make reading errors than somebody who
23uses the handwritten original, what I might call a shirt
24sleeves historian, who goes into the archives and reads
25the microfilm? Is the latter, the shirt sleeved
26historian, more likely, more prone to commit these stupid

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 1blunders of reading an E for an A, or something like that?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, it is easier, obviously, to read the printed text
 3than it is to read handwriting. It goes without saying.
 4I have done an enormous amount of reading of handwritten
 5German myself and I know how difficult it is.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Or can be. It depends a lot on the kind of handwriting,
 8of course.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If I may suggest it, I think probably the
10best thing to do is to show the witness the script.
11 MR IRVING:     We have two or three versions of it.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     There is only one manuscript version.
13 MR RAMPTON:     No. There are two different forms of copy, my
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Show the better one.
16 MR RAMPTON:     There is one that Mr Irving produced. I am quite
17happy for Mr Irving to use the copy that he produced.
18 MR IRVING:     I think that would be more fair.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think that is J1, tab 3, page 14 but I may
20be wrong.
21 MR RAMPTON:     That is right.
22 MR IRVING:     We have the actual version I used here.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have the microfilm version.
24 MR RAMPTON:     If Mr Irving is going to use his own copy, I would
25like Professor Evans to have the same copy. No doubt, if
26it is necessary, I can come back to the better copy, the

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 1microfilm, in due course in re-examination, if I have to.
 2But, if Mr Irving is going to use his rather worse copy,
 3then I think Professor Evans should have the same one.
 4Professor Evans will need the J file, J1, tab 3, at page
 6 MR IRVING:     We are looking first at the November 30th entry
 7which is Judentransport?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Oh right, yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     We will start with that one.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Then I have not got that here, I am afraid.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     There is no need to look at the actual wording. We are
12going to look at the word "transport" very briefly, my
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We all know what the point is.
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Could you point me to exactly where it is.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     J1, tab 3, page 12.
17 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I have done a little research on the word
18"transport" but I am sure Mr Rampton will not begrudge me
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Put your question, which I could put for you
21because I know what it is going to be.
22 MR IRVING:     I will give my version of the question which is as
23follows, Professor Evans.
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you familiar with the fact that the Cassell's German
26Dictionary translates the word "transport" only as

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 1follows: "The German word transport has only these
 2meanings" in the Cassell's Dictionary and I will give the
 3Langenscheidt one in a moment. The Cassell's entry has it
 4in this order: "Transport, transportation, carriage,
 5conveyance, transfer, shipment". So is it actually
 6referring to a vehicle or to a concept?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     What date is this dictionary, Mr Irving?
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     The Cassell's Dictionary has remained unchanged in this
 9particular one since 1935.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Are you quoting the 1935 edition?
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. I spent a lot of money buying them at five year
12intervals to see if it changed, and they just used a
13photographic copy the whole way through.
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Can I see a copy, please?
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Let us refer to the Langenscheidt edition?
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think the witness is entitled to have the
17contemporary Cassell's Dictionary shown to him if he wants
18to see it.
19 MR IRVING:     My Lord, the point is, if you are looking at a word
20without the surrounding context, and you are looking for a
21translation, you pick the primary meaning. If you then
22later on learn ----
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. We do not want to overdo this point.
24You put that the dictionary meaning of "transport"
25includes as one of the meanings "transportation" and you
26say that has been the Cassell's Dictionary definition

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