Irving v. Lipstadt
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 22: Electronic Edition
Pages 46 - 50 of 207
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1 Q. [Mr Irving] The follow up appears to have been that large numbers were
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Are we not wandering miles away? I am sorry
4to keep interrupting, but we started off on 30th November
6 MR IRVING: We have moved on.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Altogether?
8 MR IRVING: I think so, yes, my Lord. We dealt with it at some
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: All right.
11 MR IRVING: That was an afterthought, as I said. We have now
12moved on. I do not know if your Lordship considers this
13item of relevance?
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not quite sure where we are going. If
15you could help me?
16 MR IRVING: This is one of the chain, actually. This document
17I consider to be one of the chain of Hitler----
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Your argument is that, because there was an
19order, and you say emanates from Hitler, that the gypsies
20should not be killed, that indicates a concern also for
21the Jews? I am not belittling the argument but that is
22what it is?
23 MR IRVING: It is a high carat, a 22 carat piece of evidence,
24if I can put it like that, written in the handwriting of
25the mass murderer himself, Heinrich Himmler, in Hitler's
26headquarters, an order from somebody else to him.
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Sorry, Mr Irving. Can I just quote this diary here?
2"12 o'clock, telephone with Heydrich. Visit to Greiser,
3so on, Poles, keine vernichtung der Zigeuner, no
4annihilation of the gypsies". That is 12 o'clock. "12.30
5travel to Hitler's headquarters, Fuhrerhauptquartier,
612.30". Underneath that there is a line that says "RFSS",
7that is the Reichsfuhrer SS, that is Himmler, Mein Fuhrer,
8with the Fuhrer. So the telephone conversation with
9Heydrich which says, "keine vernichtung der Zigeuner",
10happened half an hour before Himmler even set off to see
12 MR IRVING: Pure chance then that this is on that day, April
1320th, and there is no connection at all therefore in your
14opinion with Adolf Hitler or the Fuhrer's headquarters?
15This is just Himmler suddenly having had a brainstorm,
16saying, "let us not kill the gypsies"?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] Yet it happened after all, did it not? They were killed?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] As I say, we are not quite sure how long this lasted. If
20you can trace that up as literature, you can say how long
21this lasted, which groups it applied to, and so on and so
22forth. For the moment he is saying, "keine vernichtung
23der Zigeuner". It has nothing whatsoever to do with
24Hitler. He had not seen Hitler at that time. There are
25plenty of other things that he puts in this which also
26appear to have nothing at all to do with the date, 20th
1April. "Termine", for example, visit to Greiser. That
2has nothing to do with Hitler's birthday.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] Would you consider it to be a significant entry in the
5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] This? "Keine vernichtung der Zigeuner"? Yes, of course.
6It is very interesting.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] Have you seen it mentioned by any other historians
8whatsoever at any time?
9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I have not seen any other historian claiming that this is
10an order by Hitler.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Have I got this document, Mr Irving?
12 MR RAMPTON: Your Lordship really ought to have a copy of this
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have a feeling that somewhere the reference
16 MR RAMPTON: I copied the relevant pages for 30th November and
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: 30th November and the 1st, certainly.
19 MR RAMPTON: Those you have. I have never looked at this
20before. There was a copy of it produced by Mr Irving at
22 MR IRVING: This is probably in the Schlegelberger file.
23 MR RAMPTON: And I pointed out at that time that this took
24place before Himmler had lunch.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I knew I had seen it but, if somebody
26could give me the reference for it, I would be grateful.
1 MR RAMPTON: Yes I will try to find it?
2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Would you look to borrow this, briefly?
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I would rather have the reference. Is it
4J2? I have not got a J2, incidentally.
5 MR RAMPTON: Nor have I.
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: These points just will not really get home
7unless I have got the document. I am sorry, Mr Irving, to
9 MR IRVING: I can do it in a very nice way, my Lord, by lending
10your Lordship the volume of the Himmler diary.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is very kind. But in a way I would
12rather have the actual document in a file that I am going
13to be keeping, because I am not going to keep the book.
14 MR IRVING: I can have a photocopy of that page made during the
15luncheon adjournment. That is the actual handwritten
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think I am actually getting close to it. J
18Yes, I have it. It is J1, tab 3, for the transcript page
20 MR IRVING: Would you agree, Professor Evans, that this is an
21odd way for other historians to write history, cheerily
22omitting documents which you consider to be significant,
23or which you agree to be significant?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, it is cited by, I think, by Zimmerman's standard
25work on the gypsies. I have to say that the gypsies,
26until recently, were not a much studied group of victims
1of the Nazis. Once again, Mr Irving, it is not a problem
2for me that you made use of this. It is the use that you
3made, the way you use it.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] Have you referenced this particular item in your report?
5Can you remember what your criticism of my use of this
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am making my criticism now. It is that you are claiming
8that this is an order from Hitler when it clearly is not.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] And, using your common sense, of which you are apparently
10well endowed, you would not consider there is any
11connection between the fact that this very unusual order,
12for which there is no precedent, occurs only on the day of
13Adolf Hitler's birthday, when Himmler is at Hitler's
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: We have had that point.
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] He was not at Hitler's headquarters, Mr Irving.
17 MR IRVING: It is an exact parallel to the November 30th
18episode then, is it not? Is that right?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] He was not at Hitler's headquarters. He went to Hitler's
20headquarters after he made the telephone call. It says
21here in black and white.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] Is this an exact parallel to the November ----
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] So you have just made a completely false claim.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] Is this an exact parallel to the November 30th 1941
25episode where the telephone call to Heydrich appears to
26ante-date the visit to Hitler?
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