Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 22: Electronic Edition

Pages 41 - 45 of 207

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    My Lord, we now come to the Himmler telephone notes. We
 1have some brief after thoughts. November 30th and
 2December 1st. We are on page 351 ----
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     If I can just tidy my desk?
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     While you are tidying, I can ask you, do you remember
 5yesterday saying that we had, of course, no evidence
 6whatsoever that Himmler telephoned Heydrich. It could
 7easily have been the other way round, could it not?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think that is a point you yourself made, Mr Irving,
 9about this telephone log. It does not say who telephoned
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was this, in fact, the point you made because I am asking
12the questions.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Does it matter? Does it matter in the
14slightest? I mean, tell me if it does.
15 MR IRVING:     Will you agree that on page 351 you on more than
16one occasion state, as a matter of fact, that Himmler
17telephoned Heydrich?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, that is an after thought I had on reconsidering this,
19re-reading this suddenly. As a result of what you
20yourself said, and you pointed out that one did not know
21who was phoning whom and I took that on board.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can you explain very briefly why it matters
23one way or the other?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is additional uncertainty. The point at issue here, my
25Lord, as you know, is that Mr Irving has on a number of
26occasions claimed that this is a Hitler order given by

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 1Hitler to Himmler to transmit then to Heydrich and that
 3 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Well, you have got to get the link between Hitler and
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is the link between Hitler and Himmler which has not
 6been established, and this is a phone log in which there
 7is some uncertainty which I think a responsible historian
 8has to point out. That is all.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, no, I follow why it could be of some
10marginal significance.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is not hugely important.
12 MR IRVING:     You say that this is not hugely important?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The vital question is the link between Hitler and Himmler,
14plus, of course, your misrepresentation in a number of
15your publications of the contents of the message.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you accept that this document is a significant
17document or is it totally unimportant in the flow of
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, it is a significant document.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is a significant document. Who first found it and who
21first used it? Was it a revisionist?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not think you described yourself as a revisionist
23then, Mr Irving.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was it a historian on whom you have generally looked down
25throughout the last few days?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Mr Irving, I have not at any point disputed the fact that

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 1you have discovered large numbers of documents.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did anybody in the world bother to read those telephone
 3notes before I did?
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, everybody accepts you deserve
 5credit for not only uncovering this document but a great
 6many others as well?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is what you do with them that is the problem.
 8 MR IRVING:     You mean I make use of them? Is that is the
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, you misuse them .
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us get to the point.
12 MR IRVING:     Will you look at the Peter Witte book, the Himmler
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Could I have a copy, please?
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     If mine has not been nicked, then I will lend you mine.
16Here we are. I say that with----
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Will you not need it yourself?
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     I know most of these documents off by heart.
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Mr Rampton, I think Mr Irving should have a copy, really.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     April 20th 1942.
21 MR RAMPTON:     If you do not mind, I will keep mine.
22 MR IRVING:     April 20th 1942.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Where are we?
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is a horribly expensive book. It is over £100, I
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That explains why I do not have one, does it?

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 1 MR IRVING:     April 20th 1942. While you are looking for it,
 2what significance did the date of April 20th have?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is Hitler's birthday.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Adolf Hitler's birth date. If Himmler was visiting Hitler
 5on that occasion, as he was, if he was at the Wolfschanze,
 6Hitler's headquarters, is it likely he would have said
 7more than just, "happy birthday Mein Fuhrer, many happy
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It says here that he goes to see Hitler at 12.30 and at
10half past one he brings him the congratulations of the
11SS. Then at half past two he has a kind of, I guess,
12birthday lunch.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does he telephone Heydrich on that day?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     At 12 o'clock, yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is one of the references in that telephone message "keine
16Vernichtung der Zigeuner"?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes it is.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     What does that translate into English?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     "No annihilation of the gypsies".
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does that look like murder in that connection?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No. Clearly, they have been considering killing the
22gypsies, but they are not clear about whether all the
23gypsies should be killed. So he is ordering that they
24should not be.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Not clear? If somebody says "keine Vernichtung der
26Zigeuner", that seems pretty clear to me that an order is

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 1being given that gypsies are not to be killed. Would you
 2agree? If that is the word, "vernichtung", in that case?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The Nazis of course divided the gypsies into mixed race
 4gypsies, who were the majority, and what they regarded as
 5pure bred gypsies, who were in a small minority, and for
 6reasons of his rather strange interest in racial history,
 7Himmler wanted to keep the pure bred gypsies alive to
 8subject them to investigation.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is there any indication of those considerations in this
10telephone call? Is there any reference to pure bred
11gypsies, or half-bred gypsies, or is it just to gypsies?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, as the footnote explains, 5,000 gypsies had
13recently, just before this telephone conversation, been
14killed in the woods in Chelmno, and it quotes an order by
15Himmler, which is preserved in the Moscow archives, that
16gypsies who were settled should not be proceeded against.
17Of course, the fact is that the Nazis did kill very, very
18large numbers of gypsies in the Second World War in
19Auschwitz and elsewhere. They are the one racial group,
20apart from the Jews, who suffered this kinds of genocide.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     So, although what appears to have been a clear order not
22to kill the gypsies was issued by somebody at Hitler's
23headquarters on April 20th 1942, the Nazis killed large
24numbers of gypsies?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     We do not know how this was followed up, and we do not
26know precisely which gypsies this referred to.

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