Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 22: Electronic Edition

Pages 26 - 30 of 207

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    So be it. That, in a way, rather tallies
 1understand how I see the important points and what should
 2do if you are going to challenge Professor Evans'
 4 MR IRVING:     My Lord, it is revealing no secrets if I say that
 5in my final speech I shall not be addressing all the
 6issues; I shall be strongly addressing to your Lordship
 7that a number of the issues are of far less moment.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I quite agree.
 9 MR IRVING:     And that the major issues like poor scholarship,
10distortion, manipulation, Holocaust denier and so on are
11the ones to which I shall attend in the final speech.
12That is why, with your Lordship's permission, I intend to
13dwell on matters like poor scholarship in a way that may
14appear infuriating to you, but I can only pick on the
15examples that are given in this report.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, but I am getting the impression -- I am
17Judge alone, I can say this and I do not have to worry
18about the Jury -- I get the slight impression that you are
19cherry picking your way through and alighting on some
20really rather minor points. I mean, the point about
21Schirmeister and Fritzsche, if I may say so, with respect
22to Professor Evans, it be could have been omitted from his
23report without doing any injustice to the Defendants'
25 MR IRVING:     Let me just ask two brief questions then, my Lord?
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, of course.

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 1 MR IRVING:     Professor Evans, you find criticism with the fact
 2that the pagination of the references to the testimony did
 3not tally?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Let me read everything I say about this: "Another
 5instance of Irving's poor scholarship is the footnote
 6reference given on page 281 of Goebbels: 'Mastermind of
 7the "Third Reich"' to back up his claim that 'Goebbels
 8however would brag that he had proved that the Jews could
 9be eliminated from the economy, whatever Funk said to the
10contrary'. When we turn to pages 190-1 and 235-7 of
11volume 17 of the Nuremberg Trials documents, cited by
12Irving as the location of the 'Testimony of Schirmeister
13and Fritzsche, June 28, 1946' in support of his statement,
14we find that the reference for pages 190-1 refers to June
1527 not June 28, that Schirmeister is never mentioned on
16these pages, and that Fritzsche's testimony deals with a
17completely different subject". I am bound to say this is
18a very minor I point. I thought it, on balance, worth
19putting in. I was not advised that it should be taken
20out, but it really is not an important, not a desperately
21important, point.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I ask you just one brief question? Are you aware of
23the fact that there are two parallel editions, one German
24and one English?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     If you -- well, in order -- if you really want to go into
26this, Mr Irving, we will have to look up both editions and

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 1have to have copies of both editions of the Nuremberg
 2Trial documents here and a copy of your book, "Goebbels:
 3Master mind of the Third Reich" which I have here.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well ----
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Do we really want to go through this?
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Speaking for myself, I do not think I would.
 7I would forget it. This is not going to feature in any
 8conclusions that I come to in this case.
 9 MR IRVING:     The allegations of poor scholarship, my Lord, rest
10substantially on these trivial complaints.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not accept that, Mr Irving.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Pages 321 to 322. We are now back in Riga at the
13shootings. Can I ask you just a brief, simple question to
14start with? Professor Evans, do you challenge my account
15of the shootings at Riga, the actual shootings on November
1630th 1941, and if so, why?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Tell me what your account is, where it is, what you are
18referring to exactly.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you read, in pursuance of your duties as an expert
20witness, the account I have given of that in various books
21including Hitler's War volume 2 -- the second edition,
22rather, and the Goebbels biography?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Can you point me to one of these, please?
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We can do that quite quickly.
25 MR IRVING:     My problem here, my Lord, is once again the fact
26that this is not the right witness to ask these questions

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 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Why not?
 3 MR IRVING:     Because this was certainly the matter to be
 4addressed to the Holocaust witness rather than to this
 5witness, but he has spent a page and a half looking at
 6this episode, and I am just trying to deal with this
 7summarily. Does he accept my account is right?
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think that is a very sensible question to
 9start with actually.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, well, turn to pages 347 and 348 of my report, and
11there you will see my criticisms.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That should give us the reference too for
13the ...
14 MR IRVING:     The manipulation of statistics?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can somebody find us the passage in Hitler's
17War? It is not very good on its index.
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This is also Goebbels, page 645.
19 MR IRVING:     Shall we just dwell on the Goebbels one which is a
20more recent one?
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. That is page 645 or thereabouts.
22 MR IRVING:     Yes, the footnotes. (To the witness): Do you
23suggest, witness, that I have given the wrong overall
24total for the number of Jews killed in Riga or on this
25specific day?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     First of all, you say that on 30th November 1941 5,000

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 1Jews were killed.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Whereas there is a documentation to indicate that 10,000
 4were killed and after the war the court accepted that the
 5number was actually between 13 and 15,000. You then
 6claim, when you are confronted with this evidence, that
 7each ditch into which these unfortunate people were
 8dumped, shot, would have held 1 or 2,000 victims without
 9having any evidence at all about the size of the ditches.
10That is the first point.
11     Then the second point is that in the main
12narrative in Goebbels you do not say anything about the
13second massacre on 8th December. You do, however, as
14I say, in the footnotes say that 27,800 Jews are executed
15in Riga, but you then claim that that is possibly an
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can we take those two points?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     And that is -- yes.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, take them one by one.
20 MR IRVING:     Take them one at a time. So we are now on pages
21347 and 348?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     You say: "Faced with this evidence", five lines from the
24bottom, right, of page 347?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     

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