Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 22: Electronic Edition

Pages 21 - 25 of 207

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, let me read that paragraph. You give a footnote on
 2page 281 of Goebbels.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     I summarise it for you? Are you suggesting that I got the
 4dates wrong of the testimony and the pagination wrong
 5which caused your researchers some difficulty?
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     This is one of the tiniest points I would
 7have thought in the entire report that Professor Evans has
 9 MR IRVING:     My Lord, it is a barrage of tiny points. It is
10death by a thousand cuts. I am picking on some of them
11which I can with relative ease amend the damage.
12 MR RAMPTON:     Can I intervene because that reflects on something
13I raised yesterday. I am very concerned about this
14because it put me in a difficulty. We had passed through
15Reichskristallnacht yesterday, I would have thought.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So did I.
17 MR RAMPTON:     We have now come back to it for what I might call
18pinpricks. One huge section, major section, of Professor
19Evans' of Mr Irving's treatment of Reichskristallnacht was
20the Heydrich telex at 1.28 and we have not touched on it.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You have said just now -- I am trying to
22guide you, Mr Irving -- that you were concentrating on the
23mountain peaks. Absolutely right. That is what you must
24do. Professor Evans has taken some what I agree are
25pretty tiny points, but you must not forget about the
26mountain peaks altogether. I mean, the Heydrich telex is

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 1a crucial part of the criticism that is made of your
 2rendering of the accounts of Kristallnacht. I think
 3Mr Rampton is right and I think I am right in saying that
 4you have not really challenged that part of the report.
 5 MR IRVING:     I can deal with the Heydrich telex in two lines,
 6quite simply by pointing to the 2.56 telegram that came
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Sorry?
 9 MR IRVING:     By pointing to the 2.56 document issued by the
10officer Rudolf Hess which came subsequent to that which
11clarifies that matter.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What do you mean, it clarifies?
13 MR IRVING:     I mean which renders the 1.20 telex, in my view, of
14much less significance.
15 MR RAMPTON:     No, it is not a question of history, my Lord. It
16is the question of how it is written by Mr Irving. I am
17looking at the bottom of page 276 of Goebbels and I see
18what Mr Irving wrote about it. Then if I look at the
19actual document, I think I am looking at two completely
20different things. That is the criticism made by ----
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     This is the criticism Professor Evans makes.
22 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. Mr Irving has not even touched on it. Maybe
23he accepts it as being a fair criticism. That is what
24I need to know.
25 MR IRVING:     Maybe I find these ----
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I mean, there are two points here and they

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 1are separate points. One is whether you have accurately
 2reported what the telex or the message or the order or
 3whatever it was said, and the second point is whether it
 4matters one way or another. I quite understand you say
 5you can forget about it because things moved on an hour
 6and a half later.
 7 MR IRVING:     Am I right in understanding that if I do not
 8challenge or traverse something here in cross-examination,
 9then it could be taken as accepted?
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, the mountain peaks, yes. You cannot
11chase every single tiny point, and I would not dream of
12criticising you for not doing so.
13 MR IRVING:     To be accused of poor scholarship, my Lord, is not
14a tiny point.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I follow that, but what I would be critical
16of is if you did not pick up in cross-examination major
17criticisms. It is terribly easy to see what the major
18criticisms are -- at least I believe it is.
19 MR IRVING:     We will come to them, and I am not aided by the
20lengthy discourses which are caused by the very frequent
21interruptions by Mr Rampton.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think they are very frequent and if
23they are justified, then Mr Rampton cannot be criticised
24for making them.
25 MR RAMPTON:     Can I add, while I am on this subject, that is one
26major criticism which seemed to me to have, I do not know

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 1what the word is, bypassed a mountain peak. Another one
 2appear to have been bypassed yesterday, and again it puts
 3me in a difficulty because I am bound to say at the end of
 4the case, if these mountain peaks are not tackled, I shall
 5say that Mr Irving has conceded them. Another one was the
 6Himmler log entry for 1st December 1941.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. I think Mr Irving must take his own
 9 MR RAMPTON:     I agree.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     In the end, he must cross-examine on what he
11wants to. I am not going to take anything as conceded
12because it is not cross-examined to, but I ----
13 MR IRVING:     Unless I expressly concede it.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- I think it is right that I should take
15into account the fact that he has not challenged it.
16I have to make up my own mind in the end. I do not think
17I can say that the point goes by default.
18 MR RAMPTON:     I am using a shorthand; I would if he were a
19professional advocate, he is not, but I am bound to say
20that I will place considerable weight on the fact that he
21makes no challenge.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I can see why you would.
23 MR IRVING:     Of course, they have been extensively dealt with in
24my cross-examination of me.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, I do not think that is a sufficient
26answer. I said yesterday (and I will say it again) you

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 1must cross-examine to the mountain peaks if you want to
 2challenge what Professor Evans says but you can do it
 4 MR IRVING:     Yes, I shall certainly do so.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Just going back, let us use the Heydrich
 6message of 1.20, or whatever it was ----
 7 MR IRVING:     As an example.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- as an example; if you want to say that
 9what you said about it in Goebbels is entirely accurate
10and no sensible person can criticise your account of it,
11you can put that very briefly.
12 MR IRVING:     My Lord, the submission that I intend to make on a
13number of those matters is, apply the following test: if
14that sentence or that error or that flaw or that
15misreading be taken out of that book, does it in the
16slightest alter the thrust or the weight of the
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is a very good point, but that is a
19point for final submissions ----
20 MR IRVING:     Yes, and that is why ----
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- not for cross-examination.
22 MR IRVING:     --- it may well be that I shall readily concede the
23points when the time comes.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So be it. That, in a way, rather tallies
25with what Mr Rampton just said. But you must make a
26judgment about that, but it is very important you

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