Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 22: Electronic Edition

Pages 191 - 195 of 207

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    Yes, but in view of the fact that this is precisely what
 1careful how far we allow ourselves to extrapolate.
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think that is a legitimate extrapolation.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     In fact, all the document says is: "The Fuhrer has told me
 4to clean the Jews out of the occupied Eastern territories
 5and" ----
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, he does not say that, Mr Irving.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, it says "will become free of Jews" and
 8that can either mean "free" because they are being booted
 9into the further East or murdered.
10 MR IRVING:     Oh, indeed, yes.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is difficult to say that they could be booted further
12East because that is where the Red Army was, the battle
14 MR IRVING:     Did large numbers of the Jews find themselves being
15booted over the Euro mountains? Have we seen documents in
16that connection?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not believe we have.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, we have, but, was that not much
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Have we?
21 MR IRVING:     Or taking flight?
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     100,000 going over the Eurols?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right, yes. I have not seen that.
24 MR RAMPTON:     That was in September 1941.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is why I said I thought it was rather

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 1 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, and they were not booted, they ran.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, "booted" was a colloquialism.
 3 MR IRVING:     Can we now turn the page? I am making progress as
 4rapidly as I can, my Lord, as you will see. We are making
 5huge progress.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not want slow you down, but can you put
 7what you say the right interpretation of this is,
 8Mr Irving, to the witness?
 9 MR IRVING:     My Lord, your Lordship will know precisely what
10I am going to say, that one should not go further than
11what the document actually says, and that one should say
12what the document says and leave the reader to form their
13own conclusions.
14 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, I cannot accept that.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think I can.
16 MR RAMPTON:     This is a document which plainly shows, unless
17Himmler is lying, that Himmler has been given an order --
18"order" is the word he uses I think.
19 MR IRVING:     Yes.
20 MR RAMPTON:     A very difficult order by Hitler to make sure that
21the occupied Eastern territories are going to be or are
22becoming free of Jews. Now the question Mr Irving has to
23grapple with and put to this witness is where were they
24going? Were they still going to Madagascar, is my
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think that articulates rather better than

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 1I did what I was really inviting you to do, which is to
 2say -- I mean the Defendants say this is quite an
 3incriminating document. I think if your case is, Mr
 4Irving, that it is not an incriminating document you
 5should explain, or not explain, put to the witness why
 6not. Do you follow me?
 7 MR IRVING:     My Lord, you know my method. I will churn around
 8inside a document as long as I can before moving on to the
 9next document which makes the point I am about to made,
10which I will now do, if I may.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If that is really right then that is fair
12enough. The next document?
13 MR IRVING:     The next document is the document headed in
14handwriting at the top right-hand corner September 1942.
15It is typed.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Not in my bundle.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Not in mine. Is this NG2586? I have the one.
18 MR IRVING:     Does this appear to be a typed transcript of the
19same kind of agenda for discussion with Hitler, as we have
20previously seen in December 1941?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, indeed.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     The tentative date 17th September 1942, but it might have
23been 22nd. Is paragraph (iv) headed "Volkestung" which
24I suppose is nationalities and settlement?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Races I think.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Race and settlement?

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Race and settlement.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is the first topic "Juden auswandern"?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     How would you translate that "Juden auswandern"?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Jewish emigration.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does he then ask the question which he is going to ask
 7Hitler: How should we carry on or continue?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Then there is a tick indicating that, yes, they did
10discuss it?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Then the next line says: The settlement of the district of
13Lublin. They are looking at various people who they can
14send there, the people from Lorain, Germans from Bosnia?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     And so on. They are going to discuss this with this
17Globos. Who is Globos?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is a nickname for Globocnik.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Who was the Police Chief in Lublin, is that right?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     What kind of conclusions can we draw from these admittedly
22very sketchy notes by Himmler on a talk with Hitler, or
23for a talk with Hitler? Is this more camouflage?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is difficult. It is an extremely cryptic remark.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     "Auswandern" is that another euphemism?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It would seem to be at this point in September 1942

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 1I think certainly a euphemism. The basic point is that
 2they are talking about moving. I mean, the Nazis,
 3particularly Himmler and his agencies, had this grand
 4scheme of resettling Eastern Europe and moving ethnic
 5Germans from other parts of Europe in there, and what he
 6has here under 2 is settling the Lublin area with what
 7they classify as ethnic Germans from Lorain, Bosnia and
 8Bessarabia. Of course the point here is that, in order to
 9move them in and create space for them, Jews were moved
10out by being deliberately exterminated. That is really
11the connection between those. It seems that in the
12previous couple of days there was a conference in which
13Himmler had taken part on a kind temporarily agreeing to
14keep a small number of Jews on to work, as in indeed
15everyone will be familiar from the film Schindlers List.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     So, do you translate "Juden auswandern" as murdering the
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, translated as Jewish emigration, but it would seem to
19me at this time in the war that it really means killing.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     This is another ----
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sorry, Mr Irving, I am bit a puzzled
22about that because "auswandern" is an odd word to use,
23even if it is a euphemistic.
24 MR IRVING:     It is not the usual word used as a euphemism. They
25use "Evakuierung", do they not? That has a sinister

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