Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 22: Electronic Edition

Pages 186 - 190 of 207

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     All he wanted from them is work. But I think that is just
 2a cynical remark ----
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- in the winter of 1941 to '42 and it does not ----
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Professor, I think you may very well be right, you may
 6very well be right.
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It does not support the rather kind of romantic things
 8that he goes on to say about Hitler later in the document.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you now look to a table talk written, not by Heim or
10probably not by Heim, but by Henry Picker who succeeded
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     July 24th 1942?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Right.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is the end of the first ----
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Sorry, this is your -- you are still on page 4, is it?
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am sorry, it is in my bundle ----
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Ah, yes, your bundle.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- of my chain of documents?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I have that.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     At the end of the first full paragraph ----
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- is Hitler quoted as saying: "After this war is over"
24-- there is that phrase again, is it not -- "after this
25war is over" ----
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- "I am going to stand rigorously on the standpoint that
 2I am going to knock these cities' heads together", if you
 3can put it like that, "if the Jews don't come out and we
 4get rid of them to Madagascar or some other Jewish
 5national state"?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you detect there two lines that I have been constantly
 8putting to this court, first of all, the tendency of
 9Hitler to postpone things until after the war is over and,
10secondly, the tendency for a geographical solution rather
11than for a homicidal solution, if I can put it like that?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     What I detect there, Mr Irving, is pure camouflage by
13Hitler. He is telling a group of people at dinner this
14complete porky pie about wanting to send them off to
15Madagascar. It is 24th July 1947, the time when the
16extermination programme is already in full swing. The
17camps at Belzec, Sobibor and Auschwitz are already in
18operation, Treblinka had just got its first contingent,
19and on 10th February 1942 there is a Foreign Office
20document who, in fact -- in which the official had first
21proposed the Madagascar plan, many months earlier than
22this document, says that the Fuhrer has decided that the
23Jews should be pushed off, not to Madagascar, but to the
24East. Madagascar, therefore, does not need to be foreseen
25for the Final Solution any more.
26     So, on his own orders, the plan had been

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 1abandoned in February, and here he is spinning this kind
 2of smoke screen, to use your phrase, about it in his
 3circle of acquaintances and officers and so in July 1942.
 4So I think this is a ----
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     So he is living in cloud cuckoo land then, is he not?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, he is deliberately trying to deceive his audience.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Or living in cloud cuckoo land?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, deliberately trying to deceive his audience.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, your sentence that he is deliberately trying to
10deceive presupposes that you can produce evidence that he
11knew precisely what was going which is what we have been
12searching for for several weeks.
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, I do not think -- there is plenty of evidence,
14Mr Irving.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     I think we have dealt with that document now. Can we now
16just go on to the next one which is July 28th 1942? It is
17a white on black document. This is a document that you
18yourself also quote, do you not?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes -- if I can find it.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mine is almost illegible and in German?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, mine is very difficult to read.
22 MR IRVING:     I am only relying on the first paragraph, my Lord,
23and I will read it out to you in English, if I may?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is what worries me.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     There should be a dark version and a light version.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have only got a -- no, wait a minute, no.

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 1Actually, you are quite right. There is a page in between
 2in my clip.
 3 MR IRVING:     Obviously done at some ungodly hour in the morning.
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     July 1942.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Anyway, what is it and what are we ----
 6 MR IRVING:     It is an interesting one because it is talking
 7about -- this is Himmler writing to Berger, General
 8Berger, SS General Berger, right?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     [German] Berger. On July 28th 1942, which is an
11interesting period, is it not?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     In fact, it is a Top State Secret document, highest
14classification. Is Himmler saying to Berger responding to
15his minutes or memoranda: "I urgently ask you that there
16should be no kind of ordinance about what the word 'Jew'
17is, the meaning of the word 'Jew'. With all these stupid
18determinations, we are just tying our own hands".
19     Then he continues, does he not, by saying: "The
20occupied Eastern territories are going to become free of
21Jews. The execution of this very grave or burdensome
22order has been placed on my shoulders by the Fuhrer"?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     "Nobody can take that responsibility off me in
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     "So I forbid anybody to interfere".
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     And "What can we" ----
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can you put how you rely on that document?
 5 MR IRVING:     I was going to ask the witness, Professor Evans,
 6what interpretation would you place on that, that "The
 7Fuhrer has given me the job, placed on my shoulders a job
 8of rendering the occupied Eastern territories free of the
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, well, we are talking about July 1942, as I have said,
11when the death camps were already in full swing. There
12are large numbers of Jews from the occupied territories
13are being gassed in Belzec, Sobibor and Auschwitz,
14Treblinka, and so on. So I think, given that context, it
15clearly means that the Fuhrer has told Himmler to kill the
16Jews in the occupied Eastern territories.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is how you would read between the lines of that
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It does not require too much reading between the lines.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is not actually in the document, though. You are
21entitled to do this; as an historian, you are entitled to
22extrapolate, are you not?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, it is not a very grand extrapolation, given the
24context of what was going on at the time.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but in view of the fact that this is precisely what
26we are trying to determine here, we had to be a bit

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