Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 22: Electronic Edition

Pages 181 - 185 of 207

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, not "like partisans"?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, "as partisans". In other words, they are to be
 3treated, the Jews are to be treated as partisans and
 4killed. It is another of these, this rather thick, there
 5is a kind of thickening of documents from the documentary
 6record immediately after the declaration of war on
 7America, and this is one of the documents that follows
 8from that. Probably a fall out of Hitler's speech to the
 9Gauleiters on 12th December.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     On the following page but one, the next page but one, we
11have a table talk dated July 24th 1942?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     This is not from the Henry (sic) Heim table talks now,
14this is from the ----
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Heinrich Heim.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Heinrich Heim. I am sorry, before we do that one, can
17I direct your attention to one of the little documents
18I brought in this morning for you? Right at the end, it
19is typed in big typeface, it is a note on a conversation?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not think I have got it. It is a picture is the last
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Two or three pages before that, you should find two pages
23typed in large typeface?
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Consisting of what?
25 MR IRVING:     Henrich Heim?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Henrich Heim.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think I have that.
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     1862 is the number on the top right-hand side of it. It
 3is in the small bundle beginning with the type, with a
 4kind of ----
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I have the bundle, but mine, obviously,
 6does not extend as far as everybody else's.
 7 MR IRVING:     In that case I will leave it then. It was purely
 8the man who did the table talks who had -- perhaps that
 9could be given? Do you have a copy of it, witness?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Right. Is this a memorandum drawn up by Henry Heim?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Heinrich Heim.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Heinrich Heim?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     1968.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Rather a long time after the war.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Does he describe a conversation that he records --
18was he the man who wrote Hitler's Table Talk?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     He was one of the three people who recorded Hitler's Table
20Talk, yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you look just briefly at the third page that is in
22front of you there which is another typescript page -- do
23you have it -- of an actual page of Hitler's table talk in
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, with a "page 4" on top?
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     I think so, yes.

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No. 4, yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     This is one of the Henry Heim table talks which ----
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Heinrich Heim, yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- he himself typed, is that right?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is Heinrich Heim and Henry Picker. You must not
 6confuse the two. Yes, it looks like it. There is no date
 7or anything on it.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     He was in a position to know things. He was at Hitler's
 9table or at the next door table writing notes during his
10table talk? That is what he did, is it not?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right, yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     He was the adjutant to Martin Bormann?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     In 1968, he remembers Adolf Hitler in December 1941, for
15what it is worth, and I throw that in and you will comment
16on that, does he not say: "I remember Hitler clearly
17saying in December 1941, 'I do not know what the Jews are
18complaining about. All I ask of them is that they go and
19do some good hard labour somewhere. I do not know even
20ask of them to go and serve in the armed forces'"?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you think that conversation took place or that remark
23was made by Hitler? He says there, "I forgot to write it
24down at the time"?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does he not? Would you attach any kind weight to that

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 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I mean, not a great deal since Heim was a dyed in the wool
 3old Nazi who ----
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was he a war criminal? Was he arrested?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- was described by people who knew him as not really
 6living in the real world and always had this incredibly
 7rosy view of Hitler.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     He was Hitler ----
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This is about 40 years, nearly 40 years, after the event,
10and he is trying to tell everybody that Hitler cannot have
11known about Auschwitz. So I treat this with a certain
12degree of scepticism.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well it was not 40 years, was it? It was slightly less.
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     1941 to 1968.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. But if he had said that in ----
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Take off three years, if you like.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- a German court of law at or about the same time there
18were numerous trials going on that had been quoted by the
19expert witnesses in their footnotes of German trials in
20the 1970s, so it is not impossible -- he says that this
21remark does keep coming back to him. He keeps on
22remembering it, does he not? Hitler having said, "I do
23not know what the Jews are complaining about. I just want
24them to be sent off to do hard work. I am not even asking
25them to go and fight in the armed forces"?
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, just so that I am clear, you rely

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 1on that as being Hitler's state of mind at this time?
 2 MR IRVING:     According to this source ----
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No. My question was you rely on this
 4document as establishing that that was, indeed, Hitler's
 5state of mind?
 6 MR IRVING:     As far as I think the German Jews are concerned,
 7yes. I do not think Heim is specific about which Jews he
 8is talking about. I do not think he is throwing in all
 9the wretched Jews in the Russian cities who have fallen
10into German hands. It is a document in the Institute of
11History. It is in their archives. They have conducted
12several interviews with Heim and, for what it is worth, I
13have put it in as yet another indication that the people
14who were close to Hitler never heard him saying anything
15different. On some occasions they heard him say things
16like this. Now, we ----
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I mean, it is difficult to digest this, just having
18first seen it. I mean, I would not place a great deal of
19credence on this ----
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am sorry you have just seen it. It has been in
21discovery for about 18 months.
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- on this document. Well, it is just not a very
23convincing document. It may well be that Hitler made some
24kind of cynical remark like this, that Jews -- he was
25always saying the Jews had reason to be grateful to him.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.

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