Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 22: Electronic Edition

Pages 176 - 180 of 207

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    This is right, this is the 12th December, and he says that
 1because it is the, because we have the war there. Then
 2there is the discussion, and Rosenberg now meets who is
 3responsible, the Minister responsible for the East,
 4Eastern areas, and says, I mean, that is the context and
 5he now says, "Well, I have discussed it with, on the
 6Jewish question", he talks then about the New York Jews,
 7and then he says, "I took the standpoint of not talking
 8about the extirpation of Jewry", the "ausrotten des
 9Judentungs". "The Fuhrer approved of this position and
10said, 'They had forced the war on us and they had brought
11destruction. It was no wonder if the consequences
12affected them first'."
13     So that, in other words, "Judentung" there
14refers quite clearly to "the Jews" because he goes on to
15talk about "they", and the context of this is your claim
16that he is talking about the stamping out of Judaism
17I think is the phrase you use in your book.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, I was just asking you what inferences you would draw
19from this document?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, the inference is that you have manipulated and
21falsified the document in your presentation of it, Mr
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, I am asking you what inferences you will draw from
24the content of this document, rather than the way I have
25written about it in any way.
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The inference I would draw is that, the inference I would

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 1draw are that Hitler is approving the notion, and
 2Rosenberg together are discussing the killing, mass
 3killing, of Jews, they think it is a good idea, but you
 4have got to keep it quiet.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Rosenberg is informed, of course, of the killings on the
 6Eastern Front?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     He knows what is going on, of course, yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     He is informed because we have just read yesterday the
 9letter to him on November 15th, a few pages earlier in
10this file, about seven pages earlier, from Lozer, who is
11the boss in Riga, who has asked him, "What are we
12supposed to be doing with the Jews? I cannot find
13anything in the brown file". Do you remember that one?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     So there is no directives, even in mid November, and now
16here on December 14th they are talking vaguely about the
17extirpation of the Jews, but there is still nothing
18specific being written down by anybody, even at this time,
19even by Rosenburg who is writing a private diary, he does
20not say, "Well, the Fuhrer says he is fully aware of what
21is going on and says, 'Keep on doing what is being done in
22Riga'." Why does nobody write anything down explicitly, I
23guess, Professor, this is what I am asking. Perfectly?
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I thought we had been through that, that is
25camouflage, is it not?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.

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 1 MR IRVING:     Even in their own private diaries, my Lord, in
 2their own private papers?
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You have made that point, Mr Irving. I mean,
 4I have the point.
 5 MR IRVING:     I did say I was not going to spend very long on
 6that document. I will ask, however, about documents which
 7are not in this bundle. Are you familiar with the private
 8diary of Otto Brottigan(?)?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Otto Brottigan was, I think, the liaison officer between
11Rosenberg and the German Army High Command?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did Brottigan refer in September 1941 to a situation that
14had arisen because Stalin had rounded up all the so-called
15vulgar Germans and could they now not take reprisals on
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     What was Hitler's response to that?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Can I see the document, please? I had better see it.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Where is the document?
21 MR IRVING:     It is not in any of the bundles. The witness has
22said he is familiar with the diary of Brottigan ----
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, but when we are going to discuss it in detail,
24I think I need to have it in front of me.
25 MR IRVING:     Did Hitler say, "Let us keep all these Jews alive
26as hostages to keep the Americans out of the war"?

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I would need to see the document, I am afraid, Mr Irving.
 2I do not mean to cause difficulties, but I really do find
 3it very difficult to discuss these things without having
 4it in front of me.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you, therefore, now -- we will abandon that.
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Is that a fair request, my Lord?
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     We will go on -- I just put to you the content of the
 8diaries, but if you do not want to ----
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I personally think that it is fair.
10 MR IRVING:     It is.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We have all been talking about context until
12we are blue in the face, and I think, you know, one is
13entitled to see the context.
14 MR IRVING:     Yes. It was a matter which occurred to me quite
15simply because the witness talked about the entry of
16America into the war.
17 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, I know, but I mean there is no dispute that
18up until Hitler declared war on the USA, which is one of
19the stupidest things he ever did, amongst others, there
20was no question about that there was some kind of a plan
21to keep the Jews as hostages to try to prevent the
22Americans joining the war. It failed partly, as I say,
23because Hitler made the mad decision to declare war on the
24United States, but there it is.
25 MR IRVING:     He had bad counsel, did he not?
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, I personally do not get much help from

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 1that because if it is designed to show that Hitler was
 2merciful, it does not seem to do anything of the kind.
 3 MR IRVING:     Can we now move on to the handwritten document of
 418th December 1941?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Again very briefly. This is Himmler's notes originally
 7for a conversation with Hitler, the conversation to take
 8place at 4 p.m. on 18th December 1941. Do you have the
 9handwritten notes?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I do.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     In my bundle?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     In my little bundle?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I have it.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     On the left-hand side Himmler has written as one topic
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     "Jewish problem" -- unmistakable the word there because it
19is very clearly written?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     On the right in a slightly different handwriting, probably
22in his green crayon, he has written "als partisan" and
23"als surotten"?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     How do you translate that?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     "To be extirpated as partisans".

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