Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 22: Electronic Edition

Pages 171 - 175 of 207

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    Have you seen a document from Himmler to Martin Bormann
 1dated February 1944 where Himmler is reporting on [German
 2spoken] in which Himmler rights to Bormann saying: [German
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, but I think that depends on the context.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Ah.
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     In this context it means extermination. It is quite
 7clear. There is no doubt about it. Tirak is saying
 8that. What else does he mean?
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can it not just equally mean that we are going to take
10these people out of society?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No. They have already done that.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can it not equally well mean that we are going to send off
13to slave labour camps where in fact 1,000 of them were
14shortly shipped?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     He says there is no sense in conserving such persons for
16years on end in German prisons and penitentiaries.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     So we will send them off to work in slave labour camps
18until they drop?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is deliberate extermination of these people by giving
20them small rations and working them to death, such as
21happened in the concentration camp at Mounthausen which is
22the one mainly reserved for these people.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     You then say the police can take their measures or their
24steps free of the threat of legal persecution and you
25assume that these measures, these steps are also going to
26be killing?

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     At a time of grave manpower shortage in Germany they need
 3the slave labour they can get?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. This is the time when the mass extermination of the
 5Jews was at its height, some 20 thousand state prisoners
 6were taken out of the prisons with a very elaborate and
 7extremely well documented operation and handed over for
 8killing through labour. One should not fall into the trap
 9of supposing that the Nazi regime was a rational regime
10which devoted all its resources to winning the war. As
11I have already said, it regarded the war as a racial war
12in which the destruction, murder of the Jews and of other
13groups was part of the war effort.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think we are going round and round.
15 MR IRVING:     We are, my Lord. We are not getting further. It
16is the meaning of words again which I am not going to deal
17with this witness on.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Please do not. For reference only, unless
19you want to pick it up, reference in the transcript that
20is, it is page 464 of the 1991 edition of Hitler's War.
21I am not encouraging anyone to go to that.
22 MR IRVING:     My Lord the next item in the expert report would be
23the Goebbels diary entry of March 27th 1942, but I propose
24putting the report aside for the remaining three quarters
25of an hour and looking just at the rest of the documents
26in the chain. Professor Evans, do you have this bundle?

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Is this the green piece of paper?
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Shall we now, before forgetting to ask you
 3this, decide where it goes? I think somebody said J2.
 4Miss Rogers probably said J2, but I say again I have not
 5got a J2. I have said that many times.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     Your Lordship is in not in that.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sorry, Mr Rampton, but it does not help
 8any of us.
 9 MS ROGERS:     I am sorry about that, my Lord. I had always
10understood that your Lordship had a J1 and a J2.
12 MS ROGERS:     Because the documents which have been produced on a
13daily basis I had thought were being put into separate
14tabs in, essentially, the Claimants' files, J1 and J2.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, well, not as far as I know.
16 MS ROGERS:     If they are not, we can provide your Lordship with
17a file -- we can give you an empty file now and perhaps we
18will update it.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That will do, except I probably ought to know
20what you have already put into J2. Anyway, can I have it
21for the moment?
22 MS ROGERS:     It will all be altogether, my Lord.
23 MR IRVING:     So the first one would be December 14th 1941, they
24are in roughly chronological order.
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Right.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Again this document is not strictly part of the chain, but

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 1it is one that would probably be held against me, so
 2I thought it would be not unfair to include it in this
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Which document are you going to?
 5 MR IRVING:     December 14th, 1941.
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Rosenberg, yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am not going to spend very much time on this document.
 8Does your Lordship have the document?
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
10 MR IRVING:     Is this an aide memoir or note by Rosenberg having
11had a conversation with Hitler on December 14th 1941?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Professor, and what do you think is significant about this
14document in the context that we are talking about today,
15the Final Solution?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, he has, Rosenberg has previously made a speech where
17he has referred rather openly to the extermination of the
18Jews. I am trying to find a reference to it in my
19report. I am leafing back. Then there is a declaration
20of war on America on 11th December, and then Hitler gave a
21speech to the Gauleiter on 12th December where he made it
22quite clear that the entry of the Americans into the war
23had altered things. He spoke in an unusually open fashion
24about his famous prophecy, the 30th January 1939, being
25fulfilled. The war, he said, the extermination of the
26Jews would happen if the world war broke out, now the

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 1world war is there ----
 2 MR IRVING:     When did he say that, in 1939 or ----
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- or on this occasion?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     He said -- the prophecy in 1939, he recalls that in his
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     But in 1939 he said "vernichtung des Judentungs", did he
 8not, that word again?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No. We would have it look it up. I am not sure it is
10"des Judentungs".
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Take it from me that he says "vernichtung".
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, I will not take it from you, no. I am lost in my
13report now, I am afraid.
14 MR RAMPTON:     If the witness is looking for the Hitler speech of
1512th December 1941, it is on page 412 of his report.
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Thank you. I have just got there.
17 MR RAMPTON:     There is the Rosenberg reference as well.
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, it is the Rosenberg reference there.
19 MR IRVING:     Yes. Basically ----
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This is just after the ----
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Declaration of war.
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- first killings in Chelmno, and there are, this is the
23annihilation, the vernichtung -- where are we?
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     The destruction of Jewry?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This is right, this is the 12th December, and he says that
26the destruction of the Jews will, it will now happen

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