Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 22: Electronic Edition

Pages 161 - 165 of 207

<< 1-5206-207 >>
    We do have a problem, do we not? We have, on the one
 1documents that you and I are familiar with. Yet here is a
 2document saying precisely the opposite, not just a mixed
 3race problem because that is in sentence two, saying
 4therefore the mixed race problem has purely theoretical
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, it does not say that. It says, "according to the
 7present discussions", and discussions are on particular
 8policy proposals within the mixed race complex, that is to
 9say ----
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     March 6th?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, sterilization, or deportation, or laws to enforce
12divorce of mixed marriages, all these various things.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, I do not think we can extract very much more
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Nor do I .
16 MR IRVING:     On this particular matter. Like so many issues, it
17is going to be left open, which does not harm my case one
18bit of course.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, I follow that.
20 MR IRVING:     I will just draw your Lordship's attention to two
21rather disturbing matters about the report that has been
22prepared by this witness on this matter at page 383.
23Professor Evans, will you look at the indented paragraph
24on page 383?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     You quoted testimony of Ficker. Just skim down to where

.   P-161

 1he says that the Fuhrer suggested postponement, line 5.
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     "Postponement for the time being of the whole problem,
 4i.e. what to do with half Jews and mixed marriages"?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you look at the German original and tell me if that
 7passage is in there?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No. That is why I provide the German original to make it
 9clear that that is my interpolation, my explanation.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Where does the reader find out that that is your
11interpolation if he is not going to check the German?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is there. That is why it is put there. It is to enable
13you to check the German, and anybody else.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you put it in round brackets or square brackets?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is in round brackets there. Sorry, that is a
16typographical -- I also have many other interpolations
17just to help the reader there. The minister being
18Lammers, the incorrect statement about the address and so
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     So you did not wish us to assume that this was part of the
21original document then?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, how could I? It is quite clearly not there in the
23original that I quote. Otherwise, if I was hell bent on
24deceiving you, I would have put that in the original
25document, would I not, in the German?
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     I do not think you would do that, but you in your

.   P-162

 1scientific and academic texts insert helpful passages like
 2in square brackets or in round brackets?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It depends.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you elsewhere in this report insert square brackets?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am not sure I actually -- there is a square bracket
 6there. I mean it is not typographically very clean, I am
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. If you look at the following page now, please, the
 9second paragraph, you rather grandly say, "Further
10testimony by Ficker makes it clear that all that was
11discussed between Lammers and Hitler was the issue of half
12Jews and mixed marriages". That is a rather grand
13statement there to make with no kind of source reference
14because that is precisely what is at the root of this
15whole argument this afternoon, is it not, what was
16discussed between them?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This is his testimony on 20th December 1946.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Where do we know that? You just say "Further testimony by
19Ficker makes it clear".
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. It follows on. It is covered by the paragraph
21saying it is his testimony on the 20th December 1946.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     But you appreciate you have not given us any source
23reference for what that testimony is?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The source reference is down there. You can check it
25out. It is the interrogation on notes 36 and 37. It is
26quite clear that refers to that. You can check it up.

.   P-163

 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     On page 386, line 2, you say that Hitler made tasteless
 2remarks about cross breeding between Jews and non-Jews.
 3Is that right?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     In Mein Kampf.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I said cross breeding and bastards, yes.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What is the point about that?
 8 MR IRVING:     I am wondering whether in fact a portion of the
 9Jewish community also do not argue against cross breeding
10between Jews and non-Jews. I am wondering whether he was
11not actually serving their interests in some odd kind of
12way. They also are against mixed marriages, is that not
13so, Professor.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am obviously missing the point. Let us go
16 MR IRVING:     On page 388, paragraph 27, you have a meeting under
17the heading "Endlosung der Judenfrager", and you say it
18was entirely devoted to the issue of half Jews and mixed
19marriages. Was that what the "Entlosung der Judenfrager"
20actually means, then? Is it just the mixed marriages and
21mixed races?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Certainly not, but it is the heading that they have used
23for this particular meeting.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. I am nearly finished with this particular meeting
25document. On page 389, paragraph 1, there is a little bit
26of mealy mouthed reporting here by you. You say the

.   P-164

 1detailed investigation by David Irving is wrong to claim
 2with certainty that the document was dictated by Franz
 3Schlegelberger in spring 1942.
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     In the very next sentence you say this is the most
 6convincing explanation.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No. I think you have the emphasis wrong.
 8Wrong to claim with absolute certainty. I think that is
 9the point that Professor Evans is making.
10 MR IRVING:     He still continues by saying this is the most
11convincing explanation.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, you are missing the point,
13I think. The criticism of you is not so much -- tell me
14if I am wrong about this -- that you have the
15interpretation of the Schlegelberger memorandum wrong,
16because I think Professor Evans probably would say it is a
17possible explanation, but I think the criticism is that a
18responsible, objective historian would indicate to the
19reader that it is not quite as crystal clear as your text
21 MR IRVING:     Perhaps I can ask a couple more questions to bring
22that out, my Lord.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Does that misrepresent your view?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It does, my Lord. What I am saying is that Mr Irving has
25used this document in his work to trumpet what he regards
26as Hitler's declaration that the Jews should not be

.   P-165

<< 1-5206-207 >>