Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 22: Electronic Edition

Pages 141 - 145 of 207

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    Well, not necessarily not going to accept them, but
 1I think again what you have here is postwar evidence from
 2memory by people who were involved in these decisions who
 3were quite clearly concerned not to incriminate
 4themselves. I think one has to approach that kind of
 5evidence with a great deal of caution. You yourself,
 6Mr Irving, have gone on repeatedly about the superior
 7nature of contemporary evidence over this kind of
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     If Lammers, for example, had said in the witness box that
10he wanted to find out for himself and he fixed an
11appointment with the Fuhrer, "whereupon the Fuhrer told me
12that, yes, it was quite right that he had given the
13evacuation order to Himmler, but he did not want to hear
14any more briefings about this Jewish problem during the
15war", is that all very much part of this scenario?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You will have to provide me with the documents, I am
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     If you would look at page 10, please, of the little bundle
19I gave you?
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Sorry?
21 MR IRVING:     My little 25 page bundle of documents.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The one you put in yesterday?
23 MR IRVING:     No, it has been before your Lordship for about 10
24days. It is bundle B, I think.
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This is J1, is it?
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes?

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     J1, tab 7.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     You may found this unsatisfactory, but these are the
 3original source notes and end notes for Hitler's War, as
 4you will see ----
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Hang on, just let us try to -- the documents
 6are in such a mess, I am not even sure that I know which
 7clip you are ----
 8 MR IRVING:     Bundle B, my Lord, pages 10 and 11 -- no, bundle
 9D. Bundle D.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think I am there.
11 MR IRVING:     Yes. These are the end notes for the original
12edition of Hitler's War which we are already at page
132,653. It is the original note 63 which was never
14published, but it does contain this quotation of Lammers
15speaking at Nuremberg, volume 11, page 61. I accept it is
16a brief excerpt and you are entitled to impugn it on
17that ground.
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does this not appear to refer to this particular episode?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is not very satisfactory. One would wish to see the
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     The original document, yes?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I mean, we are relying on your notes here, Mr Irving -- it
24is always a risky thing to do.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     But you accept that this bundle has been before the
26instructing solicitors now for some two weeks, and that if

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 1I had got it wrong, no doubt one of their army of
 2researchers would have by now brandished it and Mr Rampton
 3would have been on his hind legs.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     Thank you very much for that, Mr Irving. You may
 5keep your insults to yourself. The fact is -- and,
 6indeed, imply them to yourself if you wish -- this
 7document, whatever it may be, if Mr Irving has relied upon
 8it, should have been disclosed by him.
 9 MR IRVING:     By what?
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     By you.
11 MR RAMPTON:     By you.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It looks as if it was though.
13 MR RAMPTON:     "What" may be the right description.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It looks as if it was.
15 MR IRVING:     It has been disclosed.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is 2653, is it not.
17 MR IRVING:     Oh, 2653 is part of the discovery.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is what I thought.
19 MR RAMPTON:     No, no, no, the original document.
20 MR IRVING:     Well, the original ----
21 MR RAMPTON:     If I am looking at page 10 of what Mr Irving calls
22his ----
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think the answer is it will be in Munich,
24will it not?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
26 MR IRVING:     Well, no, my Lord. The answer is it will be one of

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 1the 46 blue volumes of the Nuremberg trial proceedings,
 2which are no longer in my custody, possession or power, of
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Because they are in Germany?
 5 MR IRVING:     Well, they are probably in every major library in
 6the world.
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Then why can we not -- why do you say the
 9Defendants have to go and get it?
10 MR IRVING:     I provided this excerpt, but I can certainly
11provide the entire passage and your Lordship is quite
12right ----
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think you have just accepted this really is
14not all that helpful by itself.
15 MR IRVING:     Yes, you are absolutely right, my Lord, and I will
16certainly provide the entire excerpt.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Shall we chase that up?
18 MR IRVING:     Yes. But my point there is it has been now, both
19by way of discovery of the original German text and also
20in this bundle before the Defence now for two weeks, in
21this excerpted form, and I feel quite sure that had there
22been any discrepancy we would have heard about it.
23     So, witness, if I can ask you the question,
24Lammers there is appearing to say that at some time he
25took the matter up with Hitler, including evacuation,
26whatever is meant by that, and Hitler said, yes, he had

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 1given the evacuation order to Himmler, he did not want to
 2hear any more about this whole thing until after the war
 3is over?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     He did not want any more briefings, yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. So this is very much in the same kind of line as the
 6Schlegelberg memorandum, Schlegelberger memorandum?
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     On your interpretation of it?
 8 MR IRVING:     On any interpretation, my Lord.
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     On your interpretation.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am just saying it is in line, in the same kind of line.
11I am not talking about being a dilatory Fuhrer -- somebody
12who was always postponing things until tomorrow. Now we
13have more interrogations, if we have finished with that
14particular one, Professor?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Professor, you yourself have quoted at somewhat greater
17length than I have interrogations of people like Ficker
18and Boley?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I just start off by looking at my excerpts? If you
21wish to draw attention to any further excerpts that you
22have made -- this is page 12?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     "Cabinet Counselor Hans Ficker of the Reichs Chancellery
25stated in 1947: from the invitation to the March 6th
26meeting 'it was evident that evacuation or sterilisation

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