Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 22: Electronic Edition

Pages 131 - 135 of 207

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right, yes. It certainly reached -- there was a
 2very elaborate lengthy discussion of what should be
 3treated, how the Jews of Europe should be treated, and the
 4memorandum -- the minutes of the Wannsee Conference speak
 5in terms of evacuation and so on from all countries of
 6Europe, even those which were not yet under the Germans'
 7control. Eichmann said later when he was in the hands of
 8the Israelis that, of course, that is the language used
 9about evacuation disguised the fact that people had been
10talking about killing.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Disguised it from whom, from the general public or from
12each other?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     From anybody who should be, from anybody who should get
14the minutes of the Wannsee Conference.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am only going to dwell a minute or two on the Wannsee
16Conference, Professor. Your basis for saying that it was
17disguised language and euphemisms is only the Eichmann
18interrogation in 1961, is that right? None of the other
19participants backed him up on that?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, one can infer from the fact that large scale
21killings of Jews were already going on, that that is what
22is meant by evacuation.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but none of the other participants, probably about a
24dozen of them, were questioned about this after the war,
25when questioned under various conditions either by myself
26or by the American or the British interrogators, confirmed

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 1what Eichmann had said, the killing was talked about.
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I think it is unlikely that they would wish to do so.
 3There was a representative, I think Freisler was there who
 4represented the Ministry of Justice, so the Ministry of
 5Justice knew perfectly well what the conclusions of the
 6Wannsee Conference were, whether they were concerned with
 7extermination or simply with forced evacuation of Europe's
 8Jews from their resident countries to the East.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We do not want to get sidetracked. The point
10about Wannsee was that there was not any particular
11discussion about Mischlinger there or was there?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     There was, my Lord, yes, yes -- quite extensive. They
13spent a great deal of time talking about them because,
14although they seemed to have found it easy to decide what
15to do with Jews, they found it extraordinarily difficult
16to reach some decision about what to do with so-called
17Mischlinger and Jews married to non-Jews.
18 MR IRVING:     Yes, I think we can agree that the March 6th 1942
19conference was almost entirely concerned with the question
20of the half Jews and the Mischlinger, was it not?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, not almost entirely. It was entirely concerned with
22Mischlinger and half Jews.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     It was entirely?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     And Jews in mixed marriages, yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     As a component of the Final Solution?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is there a document that establishes that?
 2Presumably there is.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, your Lordship has it.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I know, but I would just like to know where
 5it is.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, I am trying to get help with that. I have it
 7in a file I marked "Schlegelberger" which is terribly
 8helpful with quotes round it, mind. It is quite a long
 9document. I have it just before the 12th March letter.
10 MR IRVING:     It is page 6 onwards. Is this the letter dated
11April 5th?
12 MR RAMPTON:     No, I am talking about the minutes.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     6th March, the minutes of 6th March.
14 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, minutes of the Conference on 6th March.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It seems to me this is quite an important
17 MR RAMPTON:     It is an important document, yes.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     And I have no idea where it is.
19 MR IRVING:     That has not been in any of my bundles, I know.
20That would have been in one of their bundles.
21 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. Mr Irving did not include it in the papers
22he gave your Lordship, so we provided it separately.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is not, I think, entirely fair. Anyway,
24let us find it. It does not matter whose fault it is.
25 MR RAMPTON:     All right, I can tell you. It is in H1(viii), if
26your Lordship has it?

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can somebody make a photocopy of it this
 3 MR RAMPTON:     It has been up there, but it has disappeared.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do not start blaming me!
 5 MR IRVING:     Is it in English or in German?
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     German.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     German.
 8 MR IRVING:     In that case, my Lord, I will ----
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think that probably matters.
10 MR IRVING:     --- volunteer to obtain an English translation for
11your Lordship over the weekend.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is very kind.
13 THE WITNESS:     I do have my own copy of this document. Thank
14you very much.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am ready when you are.
16 MR IRVING:     Very well, my Lord. I am in the witness's hands
17here which places me in some dread. Would you give a
18brief overview of what the conference was about? It was
19about the treatment, we have agreed, of the problem Jews,
20the half Jews, the quarter Jews, the people married to
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, or the Jews married to non-Jews.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, and various -- basically, various proposals were
25thrown about at this meeting and there were some proposals
26that they should be sterilized and this raised alarm

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 1bells. I am just trying to find my own ...
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Why would this be, because of the immense burden that this
 3would place on German medical services or the ----
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, the alarm bells in ----
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- red tape?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- the Ministry of Justice because there are legal
 7proposals. Right, I have got this here now.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was it a very daunting task in any way, to carry out the
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     There was a proposal that they should be compulsorily
11sterilized and remain in the Reich, but some thought that
12would not be -- that it is not impossible during the war
13-- it was not possible during the war. Mass
14sterilizations would take up medical facilities needed for
15the war wounded, and that in any case this would still
16keep them alive, as it were, and that would be a problem.
17There was an alternative proposal put forward which says
18that half Jews would be equated with Jews and "evacuated"
19possibly to special so-called settlements set up for
20half-Jews alone.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does it use quotation marks around "evacuated" or does it
22use the word "evacuated"?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Sorry, I am saying that -- they are my quotation marks
24because it is, I think, quite possible that that means
25they would in the end be killed. It may well be a
26euphemism at this stage of events if we are talking here,

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