Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 22: Electronic Edition

Pages 111 - 115 of 207

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     So can you conclude from that that I had been searching
 2for some time for that document, specifically identifying
 3it by content?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No. Just that you are asking them for it.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     A document, an alleged note on Hitler's intentions.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     He writes, "With the exception of the alleged note on
 8Hitler's intention to postpone the solution of the Jewish
 9problem", he is supplying me with photocopies of the six
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, the purpose of the next few questions for about
13four or five minutes will be purely to establish where
14these documents came from.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Which documents?
16 MR IRVING:     The Schlegelberger memorandum and the surrounding
17documents, the other five documents, or the other six
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. Just for my benefit, was the one that
20they were not able to find the original of the
21Schlegelberger memorandum?
22 MR IRVING:     Yes, absolutely.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That was not entirely clear. Thank you.
24 MR IRVING:     Would you go to pages 18 and 19 of the little
25bundle? This is a Staff Evidence Analysis sheet prepared
26by the American prosecuting staff at Nuremberg.

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is that right? About a year after the war was over?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does that describe a list of five documents that they have
 5found, and they give a brief summary of what each document
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     The title and nature is correspondence between the Reich
 9Chancellery and the Reich ministry of Justice on matters
10concerning the treatment of the Jews?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     They put the date as March to April 1942?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     The fourth item on this list is simply stated as being a
15note stating that Hitler intended to postpone solution of
16the Jewish problem until after the war?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you understand why I was interested in seeing the
19content of that note?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. Indeed I can.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. So I will tell you, Professor, that this Staff
22Evidence Analysis sheet was provided to me by the
23Institute of History in 1970 by a colleague working for
24me, as I can identify by the red rubber stamp at the
25bottom left hand corner "indexed", which was my rubber

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     I first was tipped off that this document had existed in
 31970. I am still looking for it in 1972 and it is thanks
 4to the efforts of a German historian, Professor Eberhard
 5Jaeckel, that we finally obtained the actual document. Is
 6that correct?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     In about 1978?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     So, when you write on page 364, line 2, indeed it was
11Jaeckel who first informed Irving of the document's
12existence, this is not correct, is that right? It was the
13other way round?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, I should have said perhaps whereabouts. That is
15strictly true, I suppose, in the sense that it seems to
16have been lost beforehand and nobody could actually
17confirm its actual existence.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is true, that statement there.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am not going make anything of it, just a little bit of
21flag waving.
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You can wave your flag as much as you like, Mr Irving.
23The point is there was no evidence before that that it
24actually existed.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     No evidence that it actually existed?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No. It seemed to have been lost. It might have been

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 1destroyed but it turns out that it did and does exist, and
 2it was Eberhard Jaeckel who informed you of that fact.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I ask you to go, in that case, please, to pages 15, 16
 4and 17 of the bundle? This is a little bundle of
 5documents issued by a British authority, the Political
 6Intelligence Department of the Foreign Office, even
 7earlier than that Staff Evidence Analysis sheet, November
 816th, 1945?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does it show as the final item which they have typed a
11copy of, actually the contents of the Schlegelberger
12memorandum, typed out in full with all the initials and
13everything else?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     So it existed at that time, the British had it, but by the
16time the Americans got their hands on the file of
17photocopies, this particular item had somehow vanished?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, or been mislaid.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Or been mislaid?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Could not be located. So there was no indication that it
21still existed.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     How high would you rate the importance of this document in
23the order of things as an historian? Was the document
24linking Adolf Hitler by name with the Final Solution, or
25with the solution of the Jewish problem? Is it an
26authentic document? Do you accept that?

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, I think this raises the question of your double
 2standards in the evaluation of documents. If we turn to
 3the document itself, we have heard you in the course of
 4this trial, Mr Irving, using the most nit-picking
 5flimsiest excuses to try and discredit documents you do
 6not like. Here we have a document which has no security
 7classification, no date, no signature, no reference
 8number. It is clearly in a file that was made up after
 9the war, because the British Foreign Office list the
10documents as documents found among the files of the
11Ministry of Justice. So we do not actually know where it
12came from. It is merely conjecture to say that it was
13written by Schlegelberger, who was the acting Minister of
14Justice in 1942. There is no letter head on it at all.
15And, of course, as evidence of Hitler's views, it is third
16hand. That is to say, it is somebody, possibly
17Schlegelberger, reporting on what Lammers had told him
18about what Hitler had said. There is no indication of
19actually who wrote this.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you answer the question?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     If we were to apply your criteria, one would cast
22tremendous doubt upon this document. But, of course, you
23have not done that yourself because it is a document that
24supports your own views.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you now answer the question? Does the document appear
26to be authentic? Have you any reasons to doubt its

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