Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 22: Electronic Edition

Pages 106 - 110 of 207

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    I think you are missing the thrust of the
 1criticism that Professor Evans is making there. The
 2criticism he is making is that at one point you are
 3actually admitting that you got the Himmler phone log
 4wrong, but having admitted that you later went on to
 5assert again your original interpretation of the log as
 6showing had Hitler had demonstrably ordered that the
 7Berlin Jews were not to be killed. That is the point.
 8 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I do not want to pick up his particular
 9words here ----
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am sure you do not.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am just trying to point out to you that
12your rather long question missed the point of the
14 MR IRVING:     I am just about to take this point up. I do not
15particularly, I repeat, wish to fall into the trap of
16using the words used by the witness here, which is that
17I knew it to be wrong. The fact that the Himmler agenda
18indicates that there was a meeting between Hitler and
19Himmler after the telephone call to Heydrich, does not
20exclude the possibility that they met before the telephone
21call. The fact that he had an appointment with Hitler at a
22certain time, to say in the words, and your Lordship will
23find it in the transcript, that he only met Hitler
24afterwards, there is no proof of that, that he only met
25Hitler afterwards. What we do know is that they were very
26close, that they repeatedly went in and out of each

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 1other's rooms and offices; that the appointment was at a
 2certain time; that upon arriving at Hitler's headquarters
 3for some reason Heydrich had to make this extraordinary
 4phone call ordering a total reversal of this operation
 5going on in Riga, and any common sense historian is going
 6to come to the conclusion that A is in some way connected
 7with B. But we are dealing here with Professor Evans who
 8is not able to join the dots in this particular case and
 9says there is no link.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You join too many dots, Mr Irving, that is the problem.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is where we differ.
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     To answer your ----
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     And to say that this is perverse or obtuse or a
14manipulation or a distortion is, in my view, a perverse
15use of the witness box, because you are privileged to make
16these remarks. You know you can make these remarks
17without fear of any kind of consequences, because this is
18a court of law.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Would you like to leave that sort of thing to
20me. If I thought Professor Evans were doing that, then
21I would not let him do it but I do not, and it is not for
22you to say that.
23 MR IRVING:     The reason why I will say to your Lordship that
24I have felt it perfectly proper to continue to rely upon
25these documents in the manner I have, is that I have
26perfectly properly, just as your Lordship will remember in

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 1the case of the Dresden documents, drawn it to the
 2attention of other historians that there may be a flaw in
 3this chain of argument. However, I have the right to
 4remain by my original position on the basis of my entire
 5knowledge which has been assembled, after all, over
 6thirty-nine years of working in the archives.
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am beginning to wonder who is in the witness box, you or
 8me, Mr Irving.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, but, Professor Evans.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am not sure if there were any questions all involved in
11those series of lengthy speeches.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     There was not, so you do not need to answer.
13Wait for the next question.
14 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I am going to ask if we can -- I would
15normally at this point have asked for a five-minute
16interruption, but in view of the fact that we are so close
17to the lunch adjournment can I suggest we make the
18adjournment now? I have come to the end of this
19particular part.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I am perfectly happy with that, but if
21it does not cause any inconvenience I think we will resume
22in an hour's time at 10 to 2.
23 (Luncheon Adjournment)
24(1.50 p.m.)
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, Mr Irving.
26 MR IRVING:     My Lord, thank you very much for allowing me an

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 1earlier adjournment. That was a useful hiatus. We will
 2now proceed to the Schlegelberger memorandum, unless it is
 3not worth discussing. I think myself we ought to.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I certainly would not think it was not worth
 5discussing, no.
 6 MR IRVING:     This is page 363 of the expert report.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you.
 8 MR IRVING:     Professor Evans, just so that we can be certain
 9what we are talking about by the Schlegelberger
10memorandum, do you have a little bundle of documents in
11front of you?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you turn page 9 of that little bundle?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have been overwhelmed with material here.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     We are only going to need the little bundle and your
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This is bundle D, is it in J1?
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Page 9 of that little bundle. This is the only bundle
19I will be referring to myself.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     J1 we are in, are we?
21 MS ROGERS:     Tab 7.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you.
23 MR IRVING:     These are the only documents I shall be referring
24to in my cross-examination, apart from the expert report.
25Is document No. 9 in that bundle what we are going to call
26the Schlegelberger memorandum for the sake of simplicity?

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, it is in here.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     In the top left hand corner it has the number 01/111
 3crossed out?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I have it.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you seen correspondence in the discovery that I have
 6made in this action which indicates that I was aware of
 7the existence of this memorandum in about 1970?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you seen correspondence indicating that in 1972
10I dealt with the US National Archives in an attempt to
11locate this missing memorandum? Can I take you straight,
12please, to page 22 of the bundle?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you know who Robert Wolfe is?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You tell me.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     He is the head, or he was for about 30 years the head, of
17the Foreign Document section of the US National Archives.
18He may have retired by now. Having read that letter, does
19it look as though I have asked the National Archives to
20provide me with photocopies of documents in a Nuremberg
21document identified at that time as PS-4025?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Where they found everything except one item?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     That letter to me is dated May 5th 1972?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.

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