Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 21: Electronic Edition

Pages 91 - 95 of 201

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Shops.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]      And "der Gleichen", what does that mean?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      "And similar".
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]      What does the "similar" mean? Similar to businesses or
 5similar to acts?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Similar to business, of course, Mr Irving.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]      On what basis do you say that? Your knowledge of German?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Because it is Geschafte oder der Gleichen. Had it been
 9"arson", it would have been "[German] Oder der
10Gleichen". It is quite clear. It is a shameless
11manipulation of this text to suggest that it says that
12"arson and similar acts".
13 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is this based on your ----
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Quite clearly not.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]      --- superior knowledge of the German language?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is based on my knowledge of the German language which
17is a good knowledge of the German language, Mr Irving.
18I am not claiming my knowledge is superior to yours. You
19also have a very good knowledge of the German language.
20That is why I say this is a shameless manipulation of the
21text. It is not due to mere ignores.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]      It would be useful if you could keep your answers a little
23bit shorter and more to the point.
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I know you do not like what I am saying, Mr Irving, but
25I shall say what I want to unless I am told not to by his

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]      Otherwise Mr Rampton will complain about the expense
 2again. That is why I am trying to keep these answers
 3brief. If it says "Brandlegungen an Judenschen Geschaften
 4oder der Gleichen", and you say that if the word "der
 5Gleichen" was going to refer to the "Brandlegungen", then
 6it would have to go immediately after "Brandlegungen".
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     "Brandlegungen oder der Gleichen an Judenschen
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]      But then that would make nonsense, would it not?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Why?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Why?
15 MR IRVING:     Because all you could do with the businesses as an
16object would be to set them on fire or to demolish them or
17whatever, whereas my contention is that the "der Gleichen"
18refers to acts of arson and the "der Gleichen" refers to
19other actions being carried out during that night which
20can amount to all sorts of different things.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Like?
22 MR IRVING:     Well, whatever was going on that night, my Lord.
23We know already in great detail what was going on that
24night, the arrests, the murders, the outrageous, the
25harassment, the violence, and that ----
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So your case is -- I am interested because I

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 1have not heard this before -----
 2 MR IRVING:     --- the "der Gleichen" can refer equally ----
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That this meant that all criminal, violent
 4activities should stop, although it refers to arson? Your
 5case, Mr Irving?
 6 MR IRVING:     I was hoping that we had Mr Rampton's undivided
 8 MR RAMPTON:     I am just having confirmation from a German
 9speaker behind me of your Lordship's interpretation.
10 MR IRVING:     Are you wishing to give evidence, Mr Rampton,
11because, if so, perhaps we ought to wait until we have a
12German in the witness box who we can cross-examine
13properly on this matter. No doubt we will when the time
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But I asked you a question.
16 MR IRVING:     My contention is (and I am putting this to this
17witness) that it is equally possible that "der Gleichen"
18refers either to the businesses or to the "Brandlegungun",
19if I can put it like that?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is absolutely ridiculous. It is a completely
21illegitimate misinterpretation and manipulation of this
23 Q. [Mr Irving]      Very well. We have your answers. In your considered
24view, that is an impossible interpretation?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is right. I have already said it would have been
26"Brandlegungen oder der Gleichen an Judenschen

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 1Geschaften" because it says "Brandlegungen an Judenschen
 2Geschaften oder der Gleichen". "Der Gleichen" refers to
 3Judenschen Geschaften".
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]      You are ploughing once again the depths of your
 5considerable knowledge of the German language, "alle
 6hochste Stelle", to whom does that refer?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That must refer to Hitler.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]      That must refer to Adolf Hitler. There is no question
 9about that then.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It would seem that ----
11 Q. [Mr Irving]      It is not a janitorial level order then, this one?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No, no.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]      This comes from the very top man.
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No. Hitler is saying here, "Go ahead with burning down
15synagogues. Go ahead with wrecking Jewish shops and
16smashing up the interiors. Go ahead with arresting 20,000
17people. Go ahead with smashing up Jewish apartments,
18destroying the furniture, chucking it out of the window,
19throwing some of the inhabitants out of the window. Go
20ahead with all of that, but don't commit arson on Jewish
21shops or similar premises".
22 Q. [Mr Irving]      You read all of that out of these three lines, do you?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes. I think what is omitted from here is more
24significant in a way than what is in here.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am looking at a document you do not have,
26Professor -- well, you have it but you are not looking at

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 1it -- and it has got "Brandlegungen an Judenschen
 2Geschaften" underlined. Is that in the version you are
 3looking at? Is it underlined?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Mr Irving's version is not underlined.
 5 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]      So somebody has done that later is the point?
 6 MR IRVING:     Effectively, yes, my Lord. I should amplify that
 7the version which is here is originally a negative copy
 8which is in the files of the Berlin Document Centre and
 9there is no question as to its authenticity.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, I accept that.
11 MR IRVING:     Professor, have you ever seen this document
12reproduced or printed or quoted at any time before
13I published it in my work in 1977? Has any German
14historian or non-German historian deigned to use this
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Not to my knowledge.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is there any reason why an orders from the very highest
18level, in other words, from Adolf Hitler to all
19the Gauleiters concerning the Reichskristallnacht should
20have been suppressed in this manner if it was so innocent,
21as you suggest, if it just fits in with the general
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I do not know that it was suppressed, Mr Irving. I cannot
25 Q. [Mr Irving]      Well, there appeared to be at least two different copies
26of it in existence, the one which the Defence provided and

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