Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 21: Electronic Edition

Pages 86 - 90 of 201

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes.
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     That is page 9 of tab 1.
 4 MR IRVING:     One of those messages has an igniting function, if
 5I can put it like that, and the other message has an
 6extinguishing function?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I do not accept either of those claims.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]      If the second message timed at 2.56 on the notepaper of
 9the Deputy Fuhrer orders that actions are to stop, then
10this has an extinguishing function?
11 MR RAMPTON:     I think it might be proper to get Professor Evans
12to translate this short little message as he stands in the
13witness box, rather than receiving what to my mind is a
14completely pie-eyed version.
15 MR IRVING:     I think it would be very nice if I was allowed to
16conduct my cross-examination in the manner I wish.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Could we see this document.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I remember this fairly well but it would be
19helpful if we just read it through together.
20 MR IRVING:     It is noticeable that every time I am about to make
21a killer point----
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Page 9 is ----
23 MR RAMPTON:     That is my function, Mr Irving, I am afraid.
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      This is a very brief telegram.
25 MR IRVING:     I promise that I will interrupt your killer
26points.

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      May I have give a translation, my Lord?
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, if the conversation in the background
 3ceases.
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      This is a telegram at 2.56 a.m. on 10th November 1938 from
 5the Brown House in Munich to all Gau leaderships.
 6 MR IRVING:     Can you translate the heading too then please?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Telegram via the propaganda writer, whatever that is.
 8 MR IRVING:     It is on the headed notepaper of the deputy of the
 9Fuhrer, is it not?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Not in the copy I have here, no.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]      In that case you had better have one of these copies then
12which is the genuine telegram.
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Thank you. That is very helpful.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]      And not the version produced by the Defence.
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Right. National socialist German Workers Party. It is
16very difficult to read this. Is that deputy of the Fuhrer
17staff? I am guessing. Munich 33, 10th November.
18 MR IRVING:     The office of the Deputy of the Fuhrer.
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Right. It is whited out here on my copy, I am afraid.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     There is no----
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      To all Gau leaderships for immediate ----
22 MR IRVING:     To be put into immediate effect?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, immediate effect, ordnance No. 174/38, repeat of the
24----
25 MR IRVING:     Repetition of the telegram of November 10th.
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      November 10th 1938, on the emphatic command of the all

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 1highest position.
 2 MR IRVING:     Acts of arson?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Acts, well, arson on Jewish shops or ----
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]      Businesses?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Shops or similar.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]      Shop would be Larden, would it not?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No, Gescheft. I think you yourself translated Gescheft as
 8shop in the witness box, Mr Irving.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     That is how Mr Irving translated it when I first
10asked him to do it.
11 MR IRVING:     Businesses is more precise.
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No, shops, Mr Irving.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not sure that it makes a huge amount of
14difference, actually?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It does, my Lord, I am afraid, but still.
16 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]      I am not sure it does.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Not in this particular context.
18 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]      That is what I was talking about.
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Arson and Jewish shops or the like must not ----
20 MR IRVING:     Business.
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      -- happen.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]      Establishment.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Sorry. May I translate it, Mr Irving, please? Arson or
24the laying of fire in Jewish shops or the like may not or
25must not take place under any circumstances and in no
26case, and so on. That is the essence of it.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]      Pretty emphatic, is it not?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes. What it is saying is that nobody is to set light to
 3Jewish shops or ----
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]      Businesses.
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      -- or similar kinds of premises. It is not saying that
 6nobody is to arrest the Jews. It is not saying that
 7nobody should smash the shops up. It is not saying that
 8nobody should smash up the apartments and houses of Jews.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]      Professor, I have not asked you what it does not say.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It does not say that nobody should commit arson against
11many hundreds of synagogues which were burnt down.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]      Professor, I have not asked you what it does not say.
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      What it does not say, Mr Irving, is extremely important.
14This is a very limited telegram which says that Jewish
15shops and similar kinds of premises are not to be set
16alight. The reason for that is very similar, it is the
17same kind of telegram that ----
18 Q. [Mr Irving]      Where does it say similar businesses?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      May I finish my answer, Mr Irving, please? It is the same
20kind of telegram that went out from Heydrich at 1.20 or
21from Muller at 11.55. That is to say, it is saying that
22laying fire to Jewish shops at similar apartments,
23whatever it might be, is not to be allowed because of
24course it endangers the surrounding premises, which are
25owned by Germans ----
26 Q. [Mr Irving]      Where does it say that?

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Would you please not interrupt?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      And, of course, some of these shops may well have been
 3owned by Germans. That is all it is saying. It is very
 4limited. It does not say, "Bring the whole thing to an
 5end". That is a completely illegitimate interpretation of
 6this document.
 7 MR IRVING:     Where does it say, "because of the danger to
 8surrounding premises"?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well, I am going back there to ----
10 Q. [Mr Irving]      No, I am looking at this telegram. Let us just look at
11one document at a time, please?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It does not say that, but that is my interpretation of the
13reason.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]      Can we look at what it does say and not what it does not
15say?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Indeed, yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]      Because that, surely, is where the evidence is?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]      It goes to all the Gauleiters, is that right?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is right.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]      What, about 48 of the senior Nazi Party officials though
22the entire country?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]      And it is telling them there are to be no acts of arson
25against Jewish Geschafte, whatever that is. I translate
26that as "businesses".

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