Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 21: Electronic Edition

Pages 81 - 85 of 201

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 1 MR IRVING:     As well, yes.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Not as well.
 3 MR IRVING:     Obviously one relies on many different sources when
 4one is writing that but, in view of the fact that I had
 5the Lutze diary which has not been available like many
 6other documents to the Defence, this is the picture I am
 7trying to build up. I have had a lot of documents that
 8have not been available to the expert witnesses in this
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am bound to say I find that a bit bizarre.
11If you have first hand evidence from Lutze as to what he
12said, why would you cite somebody else as support for what
13you say in your text Lutze said?
14 MR IRVING:     Well, when you look at note 34, where we have the
15German text of one fragment of what the Lutze diary
16contains, the problem is once again that all my records
17have been donated to the German government archives in
18Bonn in June 1993, after this passage was written, and
19I no longer have the Lutze diary. I have filing cards,
20but that is all I have left.
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      What we had access to of course were your notes, as this
22footnote says, on the Lutze diary.
23 MR IRVING:     But in view of the fact that you write on page 251
24quite robustly at the end of paragraph 1, once more
25Irving's account relies on a tissue of inventions,
26manipulations, suppressions and omissions, and I have been

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 1telling you for the last two hours there are numbers of
 2documents to which you paid no attention or to which you
 3have had no access, this is probably an over robust
 4verdict. Would you agree?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well, this is your account that Hitler did "everything he
 6could to prevent things nasty happening" to the Jews in
 7the pogrom of 8, 9, particularly 9 and 10 of November
 81938. That is your account and it does indeed rely on a
 9tissue of inventions, manipulations, suppressions and
11 Q. [Mr Irving]      You describe even now the interview with von Below, the
12Schaub papers, the Bruckner papers, whatever they were,
13as being just this tissue of inventions?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes. I think you accept their lies as being truth because
15that supports your line.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]      You think that I accept their lies as being true?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]      Because it supports my line?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Indeed.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]      You have no evidence for that at all, apart from the fact
21that there are a number of documents which can be
22interpreted in a different way. Would you consider the
23Eberstein telegram, the one signed by Eberstein during the
24night -- do you remember the one?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]      It is a triggering, an igniting telegram, is it not?

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No. I do not think it is an igniting telegram. The
 2igniting event of course was Goebbels' speech at
 310 o'clock to the senior party people, the SA leaders.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]      Perhaps we should have a look at that telegram. Can we
 5identify the two page telegram, the one with the
 6typescript signature of von Eberstein?
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is probably in L2, is it not?
 8 MR RAMPTON:     That is L2, tab 1, page 7.
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I do not think I have this.
10 MR IRVING:     My Lord, you will see I am now working backwards
11from Hitler's fury or from round about that time. It is a
12two-page telegram, is it not, typescript?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]      And, if you look at the second page, it has two signatures
15on it. One is the typescript signature of von Eberstein?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]      Who was the police chief of Munich and Bavaria?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, that is right.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]      And it is counter signed in handwriting by a
20Kanzellaiungestelter, which is some kind of Chancellery
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Clerk, yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]      Eberstein has not signed it himself, has he?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No. It seems to be a copy. It is a copy indeed.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]      Are you familiar with the German Civil Service method of

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 1occasionally sending out telegrams over the signature of
 2the boss?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]      Which does not necessarily mean that the boss is actually
 5there when it is being sent out? It is just his authority
 6that it is being sent out on?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Of course, done with his authority.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]      So the fact that this is a telegram signed at 2.10 a.m. in
 9typescript by Eberstein does not necessarily mean that
10Eberstein is physically at the police headquarters at that
11moment? He might be somewhere completely different?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is a possibility, yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes. So that it is entirely within the bounds of
14possibility that at this moment Eberstein, unaware that
15this was going on, was at Hitler's residence, having
16strips torn off him by his boss, by Hitler, while somebody
17else had said, you had better send this message out over
18Eberstein's signature because there has to be this going
19on tonight. It is an igniting telegram, is it not, of a
20sort? He is saying about the police standing back and the
21synagogues are going to be burning and this kind of thing,
22is it not?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is very similar to previous telegrams, the Muller and
24the Heydrich telegrams. I do not really think it is very
25likely that Eberstein was unaware of the fact that this
26rather important telegram was being sent out under his

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 1name. I find that very difficult to believe. They had
 2have telephones of course in Germany at this time.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]      If at this moment Eberstein was in Hitler's residence, it
 4would still be possible for this telegram to be is sent
 5out by police headquarters, over his typed name
 6authenticated by this staff member, would it not?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      The telephone, you say?
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]      This is the way that the German bureaucracy works
 9sometimes. The order would go out over the name of the
10boss, but it would be signed by some responsible official
11on his part, on his behalf?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes. I think, though, he would have known about it, of
13course. The boss would have been apprised of it. He
14simply would not have been in a physical position to sign
16 Q. [Mr Irving]      So, if we have 2 or 3 people on Hitler's staff who say
17that Eberstein was here with them at that time, then it is
18not necessarily contradicted by the existence of this
19telegram with Eberstein's typed signature on it?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is possible there might have been a telephone
21conversation, as I said. We do not have any evidence of
23 Q. [Mr Irving]      Are you familiar with the message that went out very
24shortly afterwards over the signature of Opdenhof of
25Rudolf Hess's staff?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is at 2.56 a.m.?

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