Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 21: Electronic Edition

Pages 76 - 80 of 201

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I cannot find this. Yes, but 20,000 Jews were already
 2being loaded on to trucks and transported to concentration
 3camps at Dachau, Buchenwald, Oranienburg. Hitler made no
 4attempt to halt this inhumanity. He ordered it,
 5Mr Irving, and, in fact, as you indeed quote Goebbels --
 6but however you say in the passage that you are quoting on
 7page 276: "'The Fuhrer', claimed Goebbels in the
 8diary,'has directed that 20 or 30,000 Jews are to be
 9arrested immediately'".
10 MR IRVING:     So, I state precisely what you say that
11I concealed?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      You are saying it is claimed, you are not saying that it
13is an accurate report. You go on, on page 277, to say
14that Hitler's involvement was limited to making no attempt
15to stop it.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]      Where do I say Hitler's involvement was limited to making
17no attempt to stop it, when I made it quite clear on page
18276 that he ordered their arrest?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No, you do not, Mr Irving.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]      "The Fuhrer has directed 20 or 30,000 Jews are to be
21arrested immediately". How else can you interpret that?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      "'The Fuhrer', claimed Goebbels in the diary, 'has
23directed that 20 or 30,000 Jews are to be arrested
25 Q. [Mr Irving]      Goebbels is our source for it, is he not?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      He is one source. The other source is the telegram of

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 1Muller ordering the arrests.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]      Do you make any reference ----
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is a telex.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]      Do you make any reference in your report to this early
 5quotation on page 276 of my book?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, the third line. What is the evidence
 8for saying that Hitler ordered them to be taken to the
 9concentration camps as opposed to having them arrested?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      There are two pieces of evidence -- well, three. One is
11the fact that they were taken to concentration camps; the
12second one is the Muller telegram which ordered the
13arrests; and the third one is the Goebbels diary.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Hang on. Goebbels's diary does not say
15anything about having all of them taken to concentration
16camps, does it?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No, just arrested.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So, the evidence for that, saying he ordered
19them to be taken to concentration camps, consists of ----
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well, my Lord, I think one has to work it out. They could
21only really have been taken to state prisons, because you
22needed a regular legal trial to put people in state
23prisons. So this has to be an action that takes place
24outside the regular legal framework, a penal system. You
25cannot keep them in police cells. If you have that number
26of people, the only place you can put them in is

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 1concentration camps and, of course, that indeed is what
 2happened. The Muller telex is quoted on pages 265 to
 4 MR IRVING:     Does the final sentence (on page 277) of that
 5paragraph, "Hitler made no attempt to halt this
 6inhumanity. He stood by, and thus deserved the odium that
 7now fell on all Germany", not refer to the whole episode?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Let me just read: "20,000 Jews were already loaded onto
 9and transported to the concentration camps at Dachau,
10Buchenwald and Oranienburg. Hitler had made no attempt to
11halt this inhumanity. He stood by." He did not stand by,
12Mr Irving, he ordered the whole thing. He ordered the
13arrests and he ordered the burning of the synagogues, and
14he ordered the destruction of Jewish shops and dwellings.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]      And?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      He ordered the arrests, and he did not merely stand by.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]      Have I left any doubt in the minds of the readers that, in
18fact, he went further and that he ordered a massive fine
19on the Jewish community and various punitive measures?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      You accept that after the event.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]      I accept this. Is this another concession by me or have I
22stated this in accordance with what the documents tell us?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      You point me to where you state this, please. You
24certainly said that, in court, Hitler ordered the economic
25measures against the Jews.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is another source which I rely on, Professor Evans, the

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 1diary of the SA commander Viktor Lutze?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]      I rely on it quite extensively, because his men were
 4involved that night, were they not?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is right, yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]      Were you able to check my references?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Let me have a look. No, I am afraid we ----.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]      Do you know where the diary is now?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is in the Friedrich Ebe Stiftung, I think.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is it in the archives of the Friedrich Ebe Stiftung which
11is equivalent of the archives of the Labour Party in
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, the report of the Social Democrat Party archive.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]      Did I have complete access to that diary when I wrote that
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I assume so, since you cited that we were denied access.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]      I had access to the source and you were denied access to
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is right, yes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is it possible therefore that there are things in the
21diary of Viktor Lutze of which you were unaware?
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Such as?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, give me some examples. Show me.
24 MR IRVING:     The fact that he was personally opposed to the
25pogrom and ordered that it should not occur, and that the
26SA people should not participate in it.

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Could you show me the passages in the diary where he says
 2that, please.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]      I am referring to paragraph 1 on page 246.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     246 of what?
 5 MR IRVING:     Of his expert report, my Lord.
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]      Sorry, I have forgotten what the question was now.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]      In broad general terms, is it likely that, having had
 9access to the diary of Viktor Lutze, and your not having
10had access to it, therefore I know more about what is in
11the diary than you do?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well, that is true but, of course, it has to be regarded
13with extreme suspicion. What you claim is that Lutze had
14misgivings, that indeed he ordered the SA not to stay out,
15and that only three of the 28 SA groups received orders to
16stage demonstrations.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But the source for that -- I am sorry to
18interrupt again -- is not Lutze but Juttner.
19 MR IRVING:     My Lord, if you look at note 34 on page 251, we do
20have indication that I had the diary of Lutze, that I was
21using it and relying on it.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, but we are really looking at footnote
2331. It is perfectly true you do there refer to the diary
24entry of Lutze, but that does not say what you put in your
25text. What you put in your text comes from gruppenFuhrer
26Max Juttner.

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