Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 21: Electronic Edition

Pages 71 - 75 of 201

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     It is indicated in the footnote; no, that's a typo. There
 1quite clearly.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]      The words that have been left out are not reproduced in
 3either version, are they?
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What is the point, Mr Irving? Let us get to
 5the point. Obviously your case is that something
 6important has been omitted which affects what is there.
 7What is it that you say has been omitted?
 8 MR IRVING:     There are two points that I am saying. Firstly, we
 9cannot always be certain that the quotation given to us by
10this witness indicates when there have been omissions.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Sorry, Mr Irving, it does indicate.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is futile. I am not even going to
13trouble Professor Evans. That is an absolutely futile
14point. It is clear from the footnote. What are you
15saying is omitted that makes any difference?
16 MR IRVING:     The words left out are: "As far as I recall from
17these first reports, it already emerged that these actions
18had been set in motion by the party or by subordinate
19formations of a party whereupon, in my presence, Hitler
20gave Himmler the order that the SS must keep out of these
21events".
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Speaking for myself, that has no bearing at
23all on the point that is being made here which is that,
24according to Wolff, Himmler and Hitler were both
25surprised. Mr Irving, I am sorry to keep interrupting,
26but this cross-examination does not appear to me to be

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 1grasping the nettle of the criticisms against you. You
 2are finding tiny little points on which you hope, and
 3sometimes succeed, in tripping up Professor Evans, but you
 4are not grappling with what the criticisms are of your
 5account of Kristallnacht. That is what you have to do, if
 6you are going to advance your case in relation to this
 7part of the criticism of you.
 8 MR IRVING:     There are so many criticisms made by this witness
 9of me that all I can really hope to do on any
10cross-examination is pick on central points, which I have
11done, like the events in Hitler's residence that night,
12and suggest that this witness is wrong in saying I had no
13sources for what I wrote.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You have not even touched on the inception of
15the events of this night, which is a key part of --
16Mr Rampton will correct me if I am wrong or Professor
17Evans will -- of their case on Kristallnacht that Hitler
18was in on it from the word go.
19 MR IRVING:     We dealt with that at very great length under
20cross-examination of myself, my Lord, and my belief was
21that I would be testing your Lordship's patience if I went
22all over that ground again.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     On the contrary, this part of Professor Evans
24is absolutely central. Professor Evans, I think, makes
25that point and you are taking tiny little points like
26whether a sentence has been left out of an account he

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 1gives as part of his testimony. That just does not really
 2affect the issues that I have to decide at all.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     I would have to say this, my Lord. It is as well
 4perhaps I say it now. Unless Mr Irving challenges
 5Professor Evans on this and other topics, upon the
 6foundation of his criticisms of Mr Irving's writings,
 7which is not in every case but in most cases and in all
 8important respects the way in which Mr Irving has treated
 9contemporary documents, then I am afraid I will take it
10that Mr Irving has accepted the criticisms.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We will come back to that. That would, in the
12ordinary case, be a completely unarguable proposition for
13Mr Rampton. Maybe we will have to come back to it later
14on, but you hear what Mr Rampton says. I do think you
15have to actually tackle the fundamental points that are
16made in Professor Evans's report, and there is no point
17in, if I may put it this way, pussy footing around the
18borders of the issue because that is not going to help me,
19is it, really?
20 MR IRVING:     I was coming at it from the rear.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     All right, I accept that.
22 MR IRVING:     I was trying to establish that this witness has an
23agenda of his own; that he is not reliable; that he
24distorts and manipulates evidence against me; that he is
25quite happy to ignore evidence which was before him for
26what I wrote; and that, on balance therefore, probably my

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 1version of events is more accurate than his.
 2     Let me therefore just take one more point.
 3Would you go to page 266, please, where again you are
 4accusing me of falsification? Halfway down, four lines
 5from the bottom of that paragraph, you say: "Irving, for
 6his part, cites Goebbels diary entry, only first to cast
 7doubt on its validity as a source, then to falsify it by
 8reporting on the basis of this reference, not that Hitler
 9ordered the Jews arrested, but he failed to prevent them
10being taken to concentration camps".
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can you just pause, so that I understand what
13we are on at the moment?
14 MR IRVING:     Has your Lordship found it?
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have found the paragraph but you plunged
16into the middle of it, so I am just trying to remind
17myself what he is talking about.
18 MR IRVING:     Again, I am accused of falsification. Is this
19relevant or not, my Lord?
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think it may be; it is not perhaps the most
21important point. Can you, Professor Evans, explain
22because I am not quite taking on board what you are saying
23in your paragraph 11?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I am trying to find the reference to the Goebbels ----.
25 MR IRVING:     Perhaps I can help you. If you go straight to
26Goebbels's biography, page 276, you will find where

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 1I quoted exactly that passage.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Whereabouts on the page?
 3 MR IRVING:     I am sorry, it is at the end of the second
 4paragraph, the sentence beginning: "The 'Fuhrer', claimed
 5Goebbels in the diary, 'has directed that 20 or 30,000
 6Jews are to be arrested immediately. That will do it.
 7Let them now see our patience is exhausted'". How can you
 8reconcile that quotation from the book with your
 9allegation that I falsified it, by reporting that not
10Hitler ordered the Jews arrested, but that he failed to
11prevent them being taken to concentration camps?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I am trying to find the reference to where you say he
13failed to take them.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]      I have given you the actual quotation from the book where
15I stated that Hitler ordered them arrested.
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Unfortunately, I do not have a reference there.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]      20,000 or 30,000 were, in fact, arrested that night, were
18they not?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is right, yes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]      They were locked away for a few days and then released, is
21that correct?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Weeks, a few weeks, Mr Irving.
23 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, the reference is the end of the first big
24paragraph on page 277, I believe. The first sentence
25begins: "But 20,000 were already -- -- ", but I am not
26sure.

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