Irving v. Lipstadt
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 21: Electronic Edition
Pages 66 - 70 of 201
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1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I do not think that sentence implies that there were not
2more, and it is not an important matter. I am happy to
3concede that you conducted various interviews. If you
4like, I will withdraw the word "the" and put "and".
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sorry, the substance of the criticism is
6that you go to your interview with him rather than to his
7own published book. That may or may not be a valid
8criticism, but worrying about whether there was more than
9one interview seems to me to be missing the wood for the
11 MR IRVING: Over the page, my Lord, on page 259, line 2, I
12allegedly, von Below allegedly told me something which
13implies that, in fact, there is no proof for it. The word
14"allegedly" implies there is no proof for it. That
15coupled with paragraph 9 where I am accused of having lied
16about obtaining the papers of von Below and using his
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, he accused you of that.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] On page 261, paragraph 11, we come to the famous quotation
20where from the Goebbels diary -- from the court report
21"Thousands of Jews would have to believe in it in the
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Sorry, page what?
24 Q. [Mr Irving] At the end of paragraph 11 of page 261.
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] 261, right. Yes. I have opted for a literal translation
26there because I did not want to be accused of
1exaggerating. I mean, I tried to convey there is a sense
2of menace in that, of course, perhaps had better believe
3it in the coming days.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: What is the point on that, Mr Irving?
5 MR IRVING: It is a German slang for "will die".
6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, I cannot agree with that.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] "Are going for a burton"?
8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, it is not German slang for "will die". If you look it
9up in the dictionary as I have done. It is "will suffer
10the consequences" is one possible meaning.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: "Glauben" means "believe", it does not mean
13 MR IRVING: It does indeed, but it is German slang. A Burton
14is a beer, but "going for a burton" has a specific
15meaning, my Lord. Goebbels writes his diary in slang,
16Goebbels speaks slang. "Daran glauben mussen" is a German
17slang, as, in fact, the Frankfurt Allgemeiner has pointed
18out, that I was perfectly correct in this particular
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] There is a threat -- there is threat included in that, but
21it does not threaten death. If you look it up in a
22dictionary, Mr Irving, you will find it does not mean
24 MR RAMPTON: My Lord, can I intervene to correct one completely
25false point that Mr Irving -- I know it is a small point,
26but it does offend my sense of fairness. He just ploughs
1on. The reference to what von Below said, or is alleged
2to have said, is on page 613 at note 44. The reference
3which Mr Irving gives for what von Below is reported to
4have said to him is "Author's interview of colonel
5Nicolaus von Below, May 18th 1968". So the other nine
6interviews can go hang. That is what Professor Irving is
8 MR IRVING: And I draw attention to the fact that all that is
9before you are the three pages and it was, obviously, an
10interview lasting many hours.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] You put the pages before us, Mr Irving.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] I have to ask a question about that then. Is it right you
13have only had three pages of the original German
14transcript in discovery?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Is that the case? You will have to check what is in
16discovery. I cannot recall it, I am afraid.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] Well, is it likely that the transcript of an interview
18lasting two or three hours would be longer than three
19pages if it is a verbatim transcript?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] Is it likely that the original transcript therefore is in
22the archives in Munich and that only those three pages
23remained in my possession?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I really do not know; there is no reason why the whole lot
25should not have remained in your possession. I do not
26know what arrangements you made about making copies of the
1material before you sent it to Munich.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] There is a lot that you really do not know then, is there
3not? This is the problem; you are an expert witness on
4this case, you had access to my papers and the archives
5and yet your answer again and again is that you do not
6know what is there, you did not see this, you did not find
8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am not quite sure what point you are trying to make now,
9Mr Irving, in this specific sense. As you know, we had
10three people who also had other things to do, 18 months to
11go through 30 years of your work, and we did the best we
12could do in the time available. I am satisfied it was
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I am sorry to go back but you must
15realise that I need to understand what the issue is. You
16went to paragraph 11 of Professor Evans' report, page 261,
17and you had your argument with him about having to believe
19 MR IRVING: The issue is purely which of us has the better
20knowledge of German, my Lord; it is only that.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is, no doubt, a fascinating topic, but
22it is not one I am actually dealing with. The criticism
23is of what you wrote about Kristallnacht in Goebbels's
25 MR IRVING: Yes, which presupposes the knowledge of German.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Could you be kind enough to direct me to the
1passage, where you quote, if you do quote, Goebbels saying
2what he said.
3 MR IRVING: We have already had it better, in fact, in one of
4his other expert reports. I think it has been quoted from
5Longerich's report. We dealt with the matter of that ----
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is as may be, but would you be kind
7enough to point me to where it is in your book one finds
8the reference to this quote, so that I can make sense of
9your criticism of the translation?
10 MR IRVING: It is not in my book at all, my Lord, that
11passage. I rely on it purely as evidence of the fact that
12this witness does not have command of the German language
13that he should have, to be an expert on a difficult matter
14like what the Goebbels diaries mean, for example.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us move on.
16 MR IRVING: Page 265, paragraph 8, the indented paragraph: You
17have not indicated in that paragraph that there is an
18omission, is that correct?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Can you point me to it then, please?
20 Q. [Mr Irving] In footnote 66, you can see where the omission is in
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] There is an omission of about 20 or 30 words that have
24been taken out, is that right?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It is indicated in the footnote; no, that's a typo. There
26should be been three dots there, but the footnote gives it
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