Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 21: Electronic Edition

Pages 61 - 65 of 201

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]      Do you accept that there were other major pogroms against
 2the Jews in Germany?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Could you name some?
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]      Are these well-known to historians, do you think?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Could you tell me when they happened?
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]      Can I turn your attention to page 252 of my Goebbels
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]      Does the middle paragraph, the second paragraph, of that
10page describe a pogrom in Berlin organized by the Nazis in
11June 1938 of which there has so far by no description by
12historians like yourself? All the usual Nazi methods,
13harassment, rounding up "1,122 criminal, 445", I quote,
14"'anti-social', and 77 foreign Jews found ... imprisoned,
151,029 were thrown into concentration camps ... 250
16Jewish-owned automobiles seized pending safety tests", I
17mean, real harassment going on there?
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What is the relevance of this, Mr Irving?
19 MR IRVING:     He has said here in his paragraph 8 that this was
20"the only nationwide pogrom undertaken in public against
21the Jewish population during the 'Third Reich'". It is an
22attack on his credibility as an expert witness. He
23appears unfamiliar with the facts that in June 1938
24Goebbels organized without any consent from Hitler a
25pogrom against the Jews which is a kind of a trial run on
26a major scale in Berlin, and I found the details of this

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 1in records in Princetown University Library. There is the
 2original report by Heldorf, the Police Chief of Berlin.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I hear what you say, Mr Irving, but what I am
 4concerned with is whether the criticisms of your account
 5of Kristallnacht are well-founded or whether they are not,
 6and the fact you have discovered another, as you put it,
 7major pogrom in Berlin in June 1938 does not appear to
 8help me very much on that.
 9 MR IRVING:     Well, it is a question of state of mind and mind
10set and expertise of myself versus this witness, my Lord.
11 THE WITNESS:     May I just then, in response to that, say that,
12of course, I am aware of the fact that there was a great
13deal of harassment and violence towards Jews in the Third
14Reich, throughout the Third Reich, from the very
15beginning, in particular, the beginning of April 1933, and
16during the so-called Nazi seizure of power during those
17months there were many arrests and a great deal of
18violence against individual Jews. There was a
19considerable amount in 1935 which was the background to
20the Nuremberg laws, and there were a considerable number
21of events, of violent actions, against arrests of,
22harassment, maltreatment of Jews, right the way through,
23including 1938.
24     The point I am trying to make here is that,
25"These events were the only major nationwide pogrom
26undertaken in public against the Jewish population during

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 1the 'Third Reich'". Let me draw your attention to two
 2words there, the first is "pogrom" which I understand to
 3be acts of mass violence and destruction and, secondly,
 5     What you are describing here in the central
 6paragraph of page 252 of Goebbels are arrests accompanied,
 7no doubt, by harassment and, secondly, it is only in
 8Berlin. So I feel that I am justified in making that
10 MR IRVING:     Can we turn to page 258, please, of your report?
11You are accusing me here of suppressing evidence again,
12are you not? Line 3, you have given a quotation from the
13Goebbels diary, page 56: "Shock-troop Hitler gets Goring
14immediately to clear things out", and so on, "the events
15during the night". Then you state: "This contemporary
16document - not mentioned by Irving" ----
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      May I just pre-empt you here, in my letter with
18amendments, 10th January 2000, I recognize on checking
19through it all again that you do cite the century on page
20276 of Goebbels, so I was wrong there.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]      So you were wrong there to suggest that I had suppressed
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Absolutely, yes, yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]      I quoted it in full, in fact?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is another matter, but you do mention it.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]      I quoted it in full?

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      You will have to direct me to the place.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]      Page 276 of the Goebbels biography, and you have accused
 3me of not mentioning this contemporary document?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No, I have withdrawn that accusation, Mr Irving.
 5I withdrew it on 10th January. So you had over a month to
 6read that.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes, but I am just drawing your attention to the fact that
 8once again you have made an accusation ----
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      The court is already aware of that. I drew my own
10attention -- I drew your attention to the fact, Mr Irving.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]      You made an accusation against me which turns out to be
12completely unfounded?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I withdrew that remark. Page what of Goebbels?
14 Q. [Mr Irving]      276.
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Is that right, page 276?
16 Q. [Mr Irving]      Lower down that page, I am now back on your report again,
17paragraph 7.
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Wait a minute, I am just checking the shock-troop Hitler.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I cannot find it.
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I cannot find it either.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Whereabouts on 276, Mr Irving?
22 MR IRVING:     Let us work backwards from: "His old ... (reading
23to the words) ... past comes flooding back". That is the
24final sentence of that paragraph.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Which paragraph?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      The indented quote in the middle of page 276, my Lord,

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 1which follows on: "We go with Schaub to the Artists'
 2Club, to await further bulletins" or "reports" in my
 3version. "In Berlin five synagogues are ablaze, then 15.
 4Now the people's anger is aroused. That night", so on and
 5so forth, "Schaub was on top form". I suppose that
 6is ----
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes I see?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      "Schaub is completely worked up. His old shock-troop is
 9coming past".
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you very much.
11 MR IRVING:     Paragraph 7 on your page of your report 258, you
12take exception to my relying on von Below. You say: "It
13appears clear in this instance that rather than rely on
14the published book", I relied on the interview von Below
15in 1968?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]      How many interviews did I conduct with colonel von Below?
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do you mean there were more than one?
19 MR IRVING:     There were about 10, my Lord, yes.
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      This was the interview in 1968, interviews, if you like,
21this is a particular interview, one particular interview
22in 1968.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]      All of the von Below interviews were available to your
24researchers in the archives, were they not?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      We are arguing about the word "the" here, Mr Irving.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]      No, we are arguing about "interviewer" in the singular.

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