Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 21: Electronic Edition

Pages 56 - 60 of 201

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    No, my Lord, I did not. With respect, I did not
 1corrected in his own handwriting in the margin with his
 2very characteristic handwriting. Why this passage appears
 3in his book is a mystery to me.
 4     A final question on this matter of the
 5documents: Professor, have you seen in my discovery now
 6one page of extracts typed by me on my large faced
 7typewriter from von Below's original typescript manuscript
 8memoirs in my discovery?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Point it to me and I will ----
10 Q. [Mr Irving]      On this particular episode?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Provide it to me and I will say whether I have seen it or
13 Q. [Mr Irving]      Well, I sometimes wonder what the purpose of discovery is,
14if all these documents are made available in numbered
15folders to the defending solicitors and the evidence is
16there, and yet they still write paragraphs like this.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Sorry, like what?
18 Q. [Mr Irving]      It is insulting, is it not?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Like what?
20 Q. [Mr Irving]      The allegation that I lied, is that not insulting, the
21allegation that I lied about having had access to von
22Below's private papers and manuscripts?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is his allegation.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes, but you have repeated it. Is it not insulting for
25you to put that in there, although the evidence in the
26discovery is that I did not lie?

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      If the man -- well, first of all, I do say, draw attention
 2to the fact, that von Below is not always a very reliable
 3witness, so I think anything I say about von Below, it is
 4clear that it is with that caution. But if he does say in
 5his published memoirs that he takes strong exception to
 6your claims that you have -- that he checked through many
 7pages of your manuscript, then I think one is duty bound
 8to record that fact. The only way we can actually verify
 9this not desperately important point is, of course, by
10looking at all the correspondence.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]      You say it is not desperately important?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is a rather peripheral issue, in my judgment.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]      If a journalist or an expert said, "Professor Evans has
14claimed to have had access to the private papers of
15Colonel Smith" and Colonel Smith says, "This is a lie", is
16that a peripheral point? Would you consider that to be a
17peripheral point?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is something slightly different. He also -- that is
19a slightly different point.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]      But do you say that Colonel von Below turns out to be
21unreliable on many points. You remember that I asked you
22earlier this morning, "Have you any impression about von
23Below's reliability? Has he ever been demonstrably wrong
24on anything he has written about?"
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is variable, yes. It is variable. He is unreliable on
26some issues. One has to make a judgment about what he is

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 2 Q. [Mr Irving]      That was not what you said in answer to my question, was
 3it? You said you did not know of any instances where he
 4had been wrong?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I honestly cannot remember. I would have to see the
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]      You would have to see the transcript.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, probably now is the right moment
 9to ask you this. Where are you suggesting, or where is
10anyone suggesting, we should put this clip of documents
11because it is very convenient you have prepared it in the
12way you have.
13 MS ROGERS:     If I can help? L2 is the Kristallnacht file.
14There should be an empty tab 9. If it is empty, I suggest
15it goes there.
16 MR IRVING:     Do you, therefore, accept, Professor, that I had
17three sources of what you would describe as being of
18variable quality, all converging on an episode in Hitler's
19private quarters on the Night of Broken Glass in which
20Hitler, apparently, vented his anger upon receiving news
21of what was happening in Munich, at least?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, and I think they are all lying.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]      You think that all three are separately lying?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well, Mr Irving, it is not beyond the bounds of
25possibility. You have already suggested in the course of
26this trial that many thousands of Holocaust survivors are

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 1all collectively lying, so it is not beyond the bounds of
 2possibility that three people are lying, is it?
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]      But the problem we have with the eyewitnesses in other
 4matters before the court is that their accounts diverge,
 5whereas the significant detail about these three is that
 6in minor points the little bits of verisimilitude are the
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Like the fact that it took place on a Sunday, for
10 Q. [Mr Irving]      I am now going to take you through some points in your
11report relating to the Kristallnacht, page 237, line 2?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      237?
13 Q. [Mr Irving]      You say that the real number of deaths, including
14suicides, was certainly much higher than 91.
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Right, yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]      And, of course, I put the figure at about 91 or 100, do
17I not, in my book?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is right.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]      That is what you are criticising? Do you have any
20evidence for saying that the real number of deaths was
21certainly much higher?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, now there were, certainly I think over 200 in Vienna
23alone. That is the figure, of course, that is given by
24the Nazi Party tribunal, but it is clear that there were
25deaths, suicides, in the camps when the 20,000 were

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]      Where does that figure come from?
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What, 91 or 200?
 3 MR IRVING:     The larger figure.
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      The 91 are the murders which are listed in the Party
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes. In a Party report; of course, there were several
 7such reports, were there not?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is the Party tribunal which investigated these
10 Q. [Mr Irving]      So the figure of 200 in Vienna alone, where does that kind
11of figure come from?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That comes from a contemporary report in Vienna. I am
13trying to find where my records are of this. I think
14I answered this in one of my answers to your written
16 Q. [Mr Irving]      Very well. Let us proceed then.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I refer you to that, my Lord.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]      It is rather holding up the court on that matter. I do
19not attach much importance to that, my Lord, so we will
20move on.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, I do not think it is...
22 MR IRVING:     At the beginning of paragraph 8, please? "These
23events were the only major nationwide pogrom undertaken in
24public against the Jewish population during the 'Third
25Reich'", is that the popular perception nowadays?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Would you like to point me to others?

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