Irving v. Lipstadt
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 21: Electronic Edition
Pages 31 - 35 of 201
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1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I think that is true, yes.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] Oblique stroke 202. They have now changed the reference,
3you say, to 203. Can I draw your attention to page 26 of
4the little bundle I gave you?
5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Indeed, yes.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] This I think will put your Lordship's mined at rest. This
7is the reason I am going through these documents. Is that
8a translation of a passage from these Julius Schaub
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I find myself in some difficulty here. I do not know, is
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You made this translation, Mr Irving, did
14 MR IRVING: I made it last night, my Lord, yes.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You have access then to Julius Schaub's
16papers? I thought they were in the archive in Munich.
17 MR IRVING: I am pretty certain that this comes from -- yes, it
18comes from the discovery. There was one page in the
19discovery from these papers I think. Off of the top of my
20head I have to say that, but this is a genuine
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] You have not supplied the original.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] It is in H 5?
24 MR RAMPTON: I do not know what particular document Mr Irving
25is talking about or which it is that he has translated.
26There is a piece about Goebbels apparently headed Schaub
1Nachlass, whatever that means, at page 4 of tab 5 of the
2file L2, the Reichskristallnacht.
3 MR IRVING: Yes, my Lord, that is where it comes from.
4 MR RAMPTON: Which is the reference given by Professor Evans at
6 MR IRVING: It was quite late when I did this translation last
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sure. I am not forgetting that side of
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, I have it.
11 MR RAMPTON: Page 4 of tab 5 my Lord. It is leaded IfZ ED
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
14 MR IRVING: If I had provided just the German to your Lordship,
15you would have rightly reprimanded me.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: The witness asked to see the German, which is
17fair enough. I am very happy with the translation.
18 MR IRVING: If the witness wishes to challenge the translation,
19then of course he may. "Without doubt Goebbels had the
20biggest influence on AH"?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Can you direct me to where exactly it is?
22 MR RAMPTON: Page 5, last paragraph.
23 MR IRVING: I have translated only the passage dealing with the
24events of that night. "Without doubt Goebbels had the
25biggest influence on AH, far more so than Bormann, he
26invented the concept Fuhrer for AH and he hammered the
1Fuhrer principle into the people. Goebbels always
2discussed his propaganda with Hitler, even during the
3war". The part I am relying on is a sentence or two
4later: "It is a certainty that Goebbels ordained the
6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] You skipped a bit. All right, yes.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] "It is a certainty that Goebbels ordained the
8Reichskristallnacht Sunday with the SA command". Of
9course it was not a Sunday, was it? It was another day of
10the week. Then comes no doubt Schaub's own
11particular hobby horse. He says, "The SS was innocent of
12this, apart from a few lesser officers. When AH learned
13on that Sunday of the anti-Semitic outrages, he was
14furious with Goebbels. He made a frightful scene with
15Goebbels and told him that this kind of propaganda was
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] Now, this is a source that you would disqualify for some
19reason, or downgrade?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] Would you disqualify it because of its content, because it
22does not agree with your own views, or because of
23something about Schaub, or something about the document?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It is a number of different things. I think he is just
25making this up, basically.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] You think he is just making it up?
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Indeed, yes. There is an enormous amount of other
2evidence, contemporary evidence, and not much later
3evidence such as this, that most of what he says here is
4not true, and that I go into in great length in my report.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] First of all, you do accept that this document is genuine,
6that this is a collection of papers given to me by the son
7of Schaub Mr Roland Schaub, containing an odd collection
8of manuscripts and notes, articles, carbon copies and the
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Indeed. I describe it on footnote 54 of my page 257.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] You have actually had a look at the heap of papers, have
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes. It is cited in the report on page 257.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, but the point I am looking at is of course that here
15we have a man who was on Adolf Hitler's private staff, his
16chief adjutant, and factotum, who says he was an
17eyewitness, or he reports to us that, when Hitler learned
18of the outrages, he was furious with Goebbels, he made a
19frightful scene. Should I have disregarded that evidence
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No. You weigh it up against other evidence and against
22Schaub's possible motives in writing this, and the fact
23that, as you say repeatedly, eyewitness testimony after
24the war is less reliable than contemporary testimony.
25This is another example of your double standards,
1 Q. [Mr Irving] Double standards?
2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes. You are determined to give credence to this report
3but you dismiss all reports of victims of the Holocaust as
4being fabrications due to mass hysteria, as we heard
6 Q. [Mr Irving] Which of us has the double standard? The person who
7pretends that this report and the contents that it
8contains should be in some way played down for no reason
9other than you do not like it? You cannot give a real
10reason why. You cannot say Schaub was a congenital liar?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] You have already said that he was wrong to say that it was
12on a Sunday, Mr Irving.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] He got the wrong day of the week but this is a mistake any
14of us can make. No doubt it stuck in his mind.
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Not if he is an utterly reliable eyewitness who has total
16recall of what went on. That alone I think should alert
17one to the fact that his memory is not particularly good.
18Then you yourself went on to discredit, or cast doubt over
19his statement that the SS was completely without any
20guilt. No doubt that is connected with the fact that
21Schaub himself was a senior officer in the SS. This is an
22extremely self serving document. One has to regard it
23with the deepest suspicion and compare it with other
24documents, preferably contemporary ones dealing with the
26 Q. [Mr Irving]
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