Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 21: Electronic Edition

Pages 26 - 30 of 201

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    Two follow up questions, however. The fact is that
 1file, is that correct?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Those are two different things, Mr Irving.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]      You did not find the Bruckner file, is that correct?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      We looked very very hard.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes or no? Did you find the Bruckner file?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      You mean this Samlung Irving with the Deckblatt and so on
 7document? We could not locate the testimony which you
 8refer to, no.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]      Should you not therefore have said in your report, it is
10quite possible that this document contained in this file
11would have borne out Mr Irving's version but we cannot
12state, not having seen it?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well I will read the you the sentences: "Irving only
14provide an incomplete reference for Bruckner's testimony,
15which could not be located in the Institute for
16Contemporary History in Munich". That is very carefully
17phrased. That not mean to say it is not there. It is
18just to say that we could not locate it there. It goes on
19to say: "The only document which could be located was a
20summary of a statement of Bruckner, written by a German
21historian. According to this summary, Bruckner claimed
22that Hitler 'is said to have raged' when he is informed of
23the burning Munich synagogue". So that does appear to be
24the source which you are relying on. If you can show me
25it is a different source you are relying on, I would be
26happy to see that.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is that document that you just referred to a part of the
 2Irving collection?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]      It is part of their ZS collection?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is in the Siegler -- it is footnoted in footnote 39.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]      Let us move on to another personality now?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I do not think it is.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am going to pursue this, if I may. I am
 9sorry to interrupt again but I think this is quite
10important. Professor Evans, you are in the difficulty you
11did not personally search the archive.
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Exactly yes.
13 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]      Can you help and say if this is any problem about doing
14so? Who was it who went to Munich?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It was my assistant Mr Vassman.
16 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]      Tell me more about him. Is he in your department?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      He is a junior research fellow in Downing College,
19 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]      Never having had to consult an archive in my entire life,
20I do not know how difficult it is to do a search. I have
21to form some sort of view about how easy the testimony of
22Bruckner should have been to find. I have no idea.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes. This is getting very convoluted, my Lord. Archives
24have file numbers, core numbers, so everything has a
25number and here we cite in footnote 39, that is the core
26number that I have said is in the Institute of

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 1Contemporary History in Munich, Zs-243/I. Basically it is
 2a kind of interview. They did a series of interviews in
 3the Institute after the war. Footnote 38 gives a numbered
 4film, which is an interview or interrogation really, of
 5Wilhelm Bruckner in 1947, statement by Schaub, so they all
 6have those core numbers. It is normal practice by
 7historians to put the core numbers in their footnotes, not
 8just to have some vague reference to testimony, which
 9makes it very difficult to locate what one is trying to
11     Then archives have descriptions, both in what
12are called location aids or search aids, which are usually
13typed up and only available in the archive, and those have
14numbers of the files and rough descriptions of what is in
15then. So you can see in this document here Samlung Irving
16Deckblatt, that is start a rough description, brief
17description, of what is in the file. These are all done
18by archivists. You can go on. It says who is the author
19and then who is allowed and who is not, whose permission
20has to be given to see the files.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If you had been your researcher and you had
22seen the kurz Bezeichnung, which, if any, of those would
23you have gone to if you were looking for Bruckner's
24account of these events?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It does not say the testimony of Wilhelm Bruckner, which
26is the tile the Mr Irving gives. There is nothing in

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 1there indicating that there is anything about the 1938
 3 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]      So you say the answer is really none of them suggests that
 4it would have any bearing?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No. In the limited time available, it might be
 6interesting to see his views on religion, or his essay on
 7Adolf Hitler, but there is nothing there to indicate that
 8he has a testimony about 1938. But there is an indication
 9in there of his testimony about other specific events, the
10Hanfstaengel the Rowan Putsch 1934. Given the fact that
11those specific references are in there, one would expect
12there to be a specific reference in there to his testimony
13about 1938.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     One more question and then I will keep
15quiet. Who compiles the kurz Bezeichnung?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is usually archivists, my Lord.
17 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]      It would not have been Mr Irving?
18 MR IRVING:     No, my Lord. In fact, this particular cover sheet
19was compiled by me. I gave 500 collection of documents to
20this institute and for each one there was this sheet in
21the front of each file. The Bruckner file is about
22quarter of an inch thick. It would have taken possibly
23five minutes to flip through and find the appropriate
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We may need to hear from the person who
26actually searched the archive. Yes.

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 1 MR IRVING:     The point I am making, my Lord, is that I am
 2accused of not having had proper sources for the events of
 3that night. The sources were there, they were referenced
 4in my Goebbels biography in a manner in which any
 5competent researcher would have found the file in a matter
 6of minutes.
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I cannot agree with that, Mr Irving.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]      Can you tell the court now -- I am moving on to another
 9personality -- who Julius Schaub was?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes. He was sort of Hitler's ----
11 Q. [Mr Irving]      Factotum?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, side kick. It is difficult to find a precise way of
13describing him. He was a very close aid of Hitler's for
14very many years.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]      An amanuensis, one of the old guard, with him in the 1923
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes. He joined the party very early on in 1921 or 22,
18personal adjutant from the mid 20s on, and again he was
19given a senior office in the SS and possessed various
20decorations and so on.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]      Look at page 257 of your report, please, where we are
22dealing with the Schaub as a source, the source which
23Irving gives for Schaub's claims is: Schaub's unpublished
24memoirs in the author's collection in the Institute of
25History in Munich, file ED.100/202. ED.100 is the Irving
26collection, is that right?

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