Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 21: Electronic Edition

Pages 21 - 25 of 201

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     "The evidence offered by Irving for this is the testimony
 1I am zeroing in on this particular collection of documents
 2which the witness has made no attempt to find?
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, I have not the faintest idea, no.
 4I really have not.
 5 MR IRVING:     My Lord, your Lordship is familiar with the meeting
 6between Hitler and the Police Chief of Munich in the
 7middle of the night on the night in question?
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I am.
 9 MR IRVING:     And one source for that meeting was the papers of
10Wilhelm Bruchner which is the papers which I donated ----
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You cite that, do you, in Goebbels?
12 MR IRVING:     Which are the papers which I donated, well, the
13reference in Goebbels is page 277.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. I am just looking at the footnotes at
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Could I have a copy, please ----
17 Q. [Mr Irving]      Footnote 45 is what you are referring to, is it?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      --- of what we are talking about here?
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     630.
20 MR RAMPTON:     It says: "Testimony of Wilhelm Bruchner (IfZ,
21Irving collection)".
22 MR IRVING:     That should be plain enough, should it not.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is the IfZ the Institute of History in Munich?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]      But is the Irving collection a well-known body of

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 1documents there under the designation Ed200 or Ed100?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Sorry, let me please just check this. Page 277 at
 3footnote 45.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     Page 613.
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      613.
 6 MR IRVING:     This is going to take a long time if we have to go
 7into this.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, we started it back to front, if I may
 9say so, Mr Irving. If we are going to go on this like
10this, I think I will make this observation to you. There
11is a criticism made of your account, particularly in
12relation to Hitler's knowledge of the pogrom that broke
13out during the course of whenever it was, 10th November,
14I think. It would be helpful to me if you went to the
15passage in Goebbels which is the subject of the criticism,
16then went to what you say is the source for what you
17write. As it is, we plunged into an extremely obscure
18document called the Deckblatt without any indication of
19where you were going; the result was I was not following
20your cross-examination.
21 MR IRVING:     I apologise, my Lord ----
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do you see my point?
23 MR IRVING:     --- if I am not making myself plain. The reason
24for this particular reason line of cross-examination is
25I am trying to establish the repugnant allegations made
26about me for having made statements in my books with no

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 1kind of foundation is the result of these expert witnesses
 2not having looked in the file which I actual reference in
 3the book.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, but I do not think you are quite
 5understanding what I am saying.
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It would have been helpful I think if in your
 7cross-examination you had gone to page 277 and shown me
 8the passage that you are seeking to justify, namely
 9sending for the police chief, Eberstein, and Eberstein
10finding Hitler livid with rage, and phoning Goebbels,
11saying what is going on, and then you can of course take
12me to what Bruckner says about it, what Eberstein says
13about it, and we can see where we go from there. Is that
14not the right way of doing it?
15 MR IRVING:     In this case unfortunately not, because your
16Lordship will have caught the words that I used when I
17said that the expert witnesses have access to these papers
18of mine but I do not. I am disbarred from visiting my own
19archives, my own collection. I am drawing to their
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You can give evidence. All right, you are
22not able to produce in disclosure Bruckner's account of
23these events, but you can put to Professor Evans what you
24say Bruckner's account reveals, can you not?
25 MR IRVING:     That is the version sustained in my book, which is
26probably footnoted and referenced back to this document

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 1which I had at the time I wrote the original manuscripts
 2of Adolf Hitler and Hitler's War, which I no longer have.
 3It is quite plain that the Defence solicitors in this
 4action were aware of the Bruckner collection in Munich and
 5yet they did not use it. They are quite happy to allege
 6that I have had no foundation for this statement of mine,
 7and there are other documents to which I am going draw
 8your Lordship's attention.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     This is all back to front. It is not a
10question of whether the Defendants' advisers have been
11diligent about it. It is a question of you showing, by
12your cross-examination of Professor Evans, that he is
13wrong to criticise you for what you write at page 277,
14because you have good reliable testimony to support it.
15That is what you should be putting in cross-examination.
16I am sorry to sound as if I am lecturing you, but it is
17very important that you conduct the cross-examination in a
18way that conveys to me ----
19 MR IRVING:     I am doing the very best I can given the limited
20circumstances that the Defence have access to my documents
21which I do not have.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Are you suggesting that they are physically
23in court, these memoirs of Bruckner?
24 MR RAMPTON:     No. Can I help?
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. Otherwise I am completely lost.
26 MR RAMPTON:     I think the position is this. Mr Irving is rather

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 1rushing his fences this morning. I understand what he is
 2saying, I think. The position is this, that they are in
 3the Munich archive.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I follow that.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     He cannot go there. My people went there and
 6could not find it. Professor Evans does not know that,
 7I do not think, because he did not go himself. One of the
 8researchers went.
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I am sorry, I do know that.
10 MR RAMPTON:     He does know that? I must not give his evidence
11then. I am sorry, it is there already.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But none of that invalidates what I was
13suggesting. I am not suggesting it, I think it must be
14done that way. Otherwise this is meaningless for me.
15 MR IRVING:     We have two more documents which will answer your
16Lordship's question straightaway.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Let me say the footnote reference to testimony of Wilhelm
18Bruckner I have said Irving collection. It is really not
19very helpful in trying to locate a document. When you
20look at Samlung Irving Deckblatt, it does not contain
21anything that is entitled testimony of Wilhelm Bruckner.
22It just contains the things that I read out. It does not
23indicate that there is anything in here giving his
24testimony about the events of the Reichskristallnacht.
25 MR IRVING:     Two follow up questions, however. The fact is that
26you did not look, or you did not find it, for the Bruckner

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