Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 21: Electronic Edition

Pages 191 - 195 of 201

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     I am saying you do not have any evidence to show that it
 1was in Hitler's bunker.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]      Right, and it would be perverse to assume that it was, is
 3that what you are saying?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I think it is going well beyond the evidence, yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]      What about on the balance of probabilities?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Balance of probabilities, not.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]      If he has come here to ----
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      If he is working, gearbeit.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]      If he has come here to see Hitler and these important
10phone calls take place from bunker at Hitler's
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      But you yourself have said that Hitler's bunker was rather
13small, so it is difficult to think that Himmler had a kind
14of permanent desk there to work at. Surely he went into
15his own quarters or his those of his adjutant with Hitler
16to do this work.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]      On December 1st there is another telephone conversation
18which we just looked at about the executions in Riga, is
19that right?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is that reference to these executions, in your opinion?
22Had there been any other executions on December 1st apart
23from these 5,000?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I think that is the last one, is it not? I am trying to
25find this.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]      December 1st, it is on page 280, line 8 approximately.

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Execution in Riga, yes. This probably refers to the one
 2the day before.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]      Are you familiar with the background of that second
 4telephone call or conversation?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Do put it to me, Mr Irving.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]      Can you turn, therefore, to the next items, turn the page
 7until you come to an item headed on the top right "PRO
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      HW16/32?
10 Q. [Mr Irving]      That is right.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]      This is a translation, and you can look either at the
13original German three pages later and it is item 24, of an
14intercept by the British decoders of a coded message from
15Himmler's staff to the chief murderer in Riga, SS
16Oberguppenfuhrer Jackelm?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]      Does it say: "The Reichsfuhrer SS Himmler summons you to
19him for a conference on December 4th"?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]      "Please state when you will arrive here and by what means
22you will be travelling on account of being fetched"?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is the immediately following telegram from Himmler himself
25to the same man?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.

.   P-192

 1 Q. [Mr Irving]      Does this one say: "The Jews being outplaced to the
 2Ostland are to be dealt with only in accordance with the
 3guidelines laid down by myself and or by the
 4Reichssicherheitsbeamter on my orders. I would punish
 5arbitrarily and disobedient acts"?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]      Do you think this is a reference to the arbitrary and
 8disobedient execution of these Berlin Jews?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes. It wants to make sure that that does not happen
10again, which indeed it does not for some months.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]      Do we see then a few days later on December 4th, we have
12to turn back a few page I am afraid, the actual visit by
13Jackelm? It is headed on the top right-hand corner in
14handwriting page 350.
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]      Right down at the bottom of that page we find Jackelm, he
17is actually twice on that page. Halfway up the page his
18name is there but it is crossed out, somebody else has
19taken his slot?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]      Then at 2130 SS Oberguppenfuhrer Jackelm ----
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is right.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]      --- has this no doubt rather uncomfortable meeting with
24the chief of the SS?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]      What do you suspect happened there? Can you look at the

.   P-193

 1right? Does is say Judenfrager?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, that is right. I expect he was told off.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]      He was told off. Is that not an extraordinary episode, in
 4your opinion?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well, no, I do not think we disagree about it, Mr Irving.
 6A train load of Berlin -- Jews are being deported from
 7Berlin to the East, and it does not seem to have been the
 8intention at this time to have to kill them. A few train
 9loads were killed, and Himmler stepped in and stopped it.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]      And for several months there were no more killings, is
11that right?
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Of German Jews?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Of German Jews transported to the East.
14 MR IRVING:     Yes, I am sorry.
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Four days after this of course on 8th December all the
16rest of the Jews in the Riga ghetto were killed by
17Jackelm, on Jackelm's order. So presumably when he
18discussed this with Himmler on the 4th, Judenfrager, he
19must also have discussed that too. Himmler must have said
20"Go ahead, kill all the rest of the Jews in the Riga
22 Q. [Mr Irving]      Do you attach any importance at all to the fact that
23Himmler had this epiphany, if I can put it like, while in
24Hitler's bunker or at least at Hitler's headquarters?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well, as I say, I do not think there is any evidence that
26he was in Hitler's bunker.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]      But he was definitely in Hitler's headquarters, was he
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      He was Hitler's headquarters. The interview with Jackelm
 4was conducted in Himmler's own place.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]      We have seen from that rather fragmentary typed message of
 6November 15th 1941, the Nuremberg document, that there was
 7nothing in the brown file; he found no directives which
 8would indicate what to do with the Jews who were there or
 9who were arriving, and he asked for a directive. So it
10appears there was system ----
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Can I just date that again? That is on the 15th.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]      November 15th.
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      November 15th, that is right, yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]      He says that he has looked in the brown file and he cannot
15find anything: "Please tell me what we are supposed to be
16doing with the Jews?"
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is rather different.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]      In what way is it different, in your view?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      The Himmler, Jackelm, Heydrich series of exchanges just
20deals with transports of Jews from Berlin.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]      But does this not ----
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      This deals with a slightly different matter of the
23economic advisability or otherwise of killing all the Jews
24in the Ostland.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]      But do you agree that this message, the November 15th
26message you are looking at, says that there are no

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