Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 21: Electronic Edition

Pages 186 - 190 of 201

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     Is there a telephone conversation at about the same time
 1between the same two people which contains the two lines
 2"getting rid of the Jews"?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]      The previous line: Conditions in the generalgouvernenent?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]      So they did talk about this kind of thing more than once?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Oh, yes. I thought you meant an order not to liquidate.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]      On the following day, on December 1st, before we go back
 9to 30th, is there a telephone conversation again between
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I am sorry it is not clear that "Beseitigung der Juden"
12means ----
13 Q. [Mr Irving]      Getting rid of?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      --- means killing, does it?
15 Q. [Mr Irving]      Well, getting rid of is ----
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well, getting rid of, yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]      --- a neutral way of putting it.
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]      On December 1st 1941 is there a telephone conversation
20between Himmler and Heydrich on page 280 at 1.15 p.m. of
21which the second topic is: "Executions in Riga"?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]      Do we know that the train load of Jews from Berlin was
24actually full of Jews who were executed in Riga?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]      Who do you think ordered there should be no liquidation of

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 1the Jews on that particular train, if that is the
 2inference we can draw?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I would imagine it is Himmler, because he was entitled to
 4give orders to Heydrich and not the other way round.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes. Why would he have ordered the train load of Jews
 6from Berlin not to be liquidated?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Because at this time there had been no general decision to
 8kill Jews who had been transported from Berlin, and
 9because this is at a time when the killing of the local
10Jews who had been herded into the ghetto in Riga was being
11managed, was being carried out. They were being shot in
12their totality in fact over these few days at the end of
13November, beginning of December, and this transport of
14Jews from Berlin landed in the middle of this and was shot
15as well.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]      Was this a matter of life and death, this telephone call?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      For the Jews, certainly.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes.
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      But I think, to answer your question, if I may, the reason
20is because this would be very alarming to those Jews who
21were still in Berlin and still in Germany. Rumour would
22get back. It was a very public kind of going on and this
23was not desired at the present moment. Indeed subsequent
24to this for some months transports of Jews from Berlin to
25the East why not shot.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]      This is pure speculation on your part about the need not

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 1to cause alarm among the remaining Jews in Berlin, is that
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No, it is not pure speculation. It refers to another
 4document which it is the Bruns' document which you know,
 5which has been discussed.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]      Does that refer to alarm in Berlin?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That says, if I recall rightly, that, here we are, this is
 8Bruns saying that someone showed him a piece of paper that
 9sanctioned the shootings; they just had to be carried out
10less conspicuously in the future.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is that not because they do not want to cause alarm in the
12local city, on the East, in Minsk or in Riga or wherever?
13Would not be the reason for that?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No, because these are Jews from Berlin. They carried on
15shooting the Jews in Riga.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]      Why did he make this telephone call from the bunker in
17Hitler's headquarters? Why did he not make it from the
18train? Is there any significance in that fact? He made
19the previous two telephone calls from the train, and yet
20this was a phone call, would you agree, as a matter of
21life and death he makes from Hitler's bunker?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well, as I say, we do not know whether it was Himmler who
23called Heydrich or the other way round. That is one of
24the problems with the phone log, it does not say who
25phoned whom. So it may well have been that Heydrich
26phoned up Himmler to let him know what was going on and a

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 1decision was made as a result of that. It is also
 2possible that the SS man he had seen previously, Gunter
 3Dalequin, from 12.00 to 1.00, who was reporting about the
 4travelling he had done on the East in the SS Political
 5Division and the Totenkopf Division who are concentration
 6camp guards, that he might have informed Himmler.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]      Have you any evidence that Gunter Dalequin in fact was
 8reporting back from the Baltic countries? Were those
 9divisions based in the Baltic or were they in fact on the
10Eastern Front?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is difficult to say or difficult to say who could have
12told him. One of the problems with this log, as you know,
13is that it is very brief and rather cryptic. So one has
14to use conjectures here a little bit.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]      The information ----
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      But that is certainly possible if one imagines why that
17happened. It seems to be the case that previous
18transports of Jews from Berlin had been shot and that this
19one that alarm was being raised in Himmler's and
20Heydrich's minds about this.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]      In Himmler's and Heydrich's minds?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]      But it is totally irrelevant the fact that this
24conversation did not take place because Himmler got to
25Hitler's bunker?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It does not say Hitler's bunker. It says "aus dem Bunker"

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 1and there are I think 29 bunkers on that site, ten in a
 2circle. I actually have a plan here of the bunkers which
 3illustrates that example.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]      Can you tell us what date that plan is?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      This is from 1944, the second one. The first one is from
 6the whole covering the period 1941 to 1944.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]      Are you aware of the fact that the bomb that exploded
 8under Hitler's table on July 20th was at first taken to be
 9the work of the local building men building lots more
10bunkers at the Fuhrer's headquarters?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, that is the case.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]      So the Fuhrer's headquarters had original existed in the
13middle of 1941 from the Barbarossa, was of a much more
14modest scale, is that right?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Sorry. Well, obviously it grew over the years, but you
16are not presenting evidence to say that this is from the
17Fuhrer bunker. Indeed, as he says later on, he has a
18midday meal with the Fuhrer, and then from 4 o'clock to
198 o'clock, gearbeit, it worked, and it seems likely to me
20that he would work at his own desk or at the desk of his
21adjutant Wolff in his bunker. I mean even in 1941 I do
22not think there is just one bunker there.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]      So you take refuge in the fact that this may not have been
24Hitler's bunker at the Wolf's lair that Himmler was
25phoning from?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     

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