Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 21: Electronic Edition

Pages 181 - 185 of 201

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 1 MR IRVING:     I will go straightforward, therefore, to July 1942.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     May I say this? Your Lordship might be helped,
 3I do not know -- Professor Evans' evidence on this is
 4perfectly clear, that both these file notes of Himmler
 5have been deliberately misrepresented by Mr Irving. He
 6gives his reasons for that in his report. I am a little
 7concerned that Mr Irving should think, he avoids that
 8confrontation simply by passing it by.
 9 MR IRVING:     That would be a different matter then which I would
10then come back to. I think this is properly the right way
11to do it, my Lord, that we will skip at this time as being
12part of the chain, but on the question of the relevance of
13these documents, these specific documents, we will take in
14our stride when we deal with the pages in the report.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Eventually, sorry, Mr Rampton, go on.
16 MR RAMPTON:     It was not so much the relevance of the particular
17documents. It is, first of all, their transcription.
18 MR IRVING:     These are different issues, of course, are they
20 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, and also once they have been properly
21transcribed their true interpretation or what I might say
22their fair objective interpretation. I think those are
23probably two questions which are too important to be
25 MR IRVING:     We can deal with it here perhaps.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What I am expecting at some stage, and

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 1I think there are about ten of them or at any rate the way
 2I see it there are about ten of them, criticisms made by
 3Professor Evans of your historiography. They are fairly
 4sort of clear cut separate topics. Mr Irving, I am not
 5absolutely certain but I think Mr Rampton is right that
 6keine liquidierung is one of them.
 7 MR IRVING:     Yes, we have been over it exhaustively.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, but I am not sure you have
 9cross-examined Professor Evans about it.
10 MR IRVING:     Yes, if it will advance the matter.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You can certainly cross-examine shortly, and
12I am encouraging you to do that, but I do not think skip
13it altogether.
14 MR IRVING:     My Lord, my questions are very short. It is the
15other half of the cross-examination that takes the time.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What I am saying is you do not need to ask a
17lot of short questions on any of these topics, but I must
18hear you put your case.
19 MR IRVING:     Very well.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not say you have to do it now because
21you may want to carry on with the exercise you are
22embarked on at the moment, but you cannot just skip the
23specific topics on which you are criticised by Professor
25 MR IRVING:     I will deal with it now. Professor Evans, will you
26look at the telephone conversation of November 30th 1941?

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]      Do you have two versions of it there, the typescript
 3version followed by the facsimile?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]      The typescript version is my own very amateurish attempt
 6about 15 years ago. What we need is on the facsimile. We
 7can agree, can we not, that this is record kept by
 8Heinrich Himmler in handwriting of his telephone
 9conversations, can we?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]      That it is headed with the word "Wolffschansser"?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]      Was that the name of Hitler's headquarters?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is the following line "from the train"?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]      And then in a similar kind of layout three or four lines
18further down "from the bunker"?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]      Underneath that we have the words 1330 SS Oberguppenfuhrer
21Heydrich in Prague or Prague?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Can I have a copy of the Himmler Dienstager book edition,
23would that be possible please? That is it. Right. Yes?
24 Q. [Mr Irving]      Does this show that at 1330 he had a telephone
25conversation with Heydrich?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.

.   P-183

 1 Q. [Mr Irving]      Does the diary which you have now just been handed, the
 2appointment book, indicate that for about an hour or two
 3that morning he worked?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, it would seem -- yes, that is right.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]      "Gute arbeit"?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]      From 12 until 13 ----
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is right.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]      -- He saw an SS officer and then he worked?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]      During that work do you think it is possible that he would
12have telephoned people or received telephone calls or
13actually met people?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I would not have thought so. I would have thought
15"gearbeit" just simply means sat down and did papers,
16because when he telephones people it appears in his
17telephone log, and usually when he meets people that
18appears in his appointments diary. So I would take
19"gearbeit" as meaning he just sat down at his desk and
20signed forms or wrote stuff or whatever, read.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]      Do you think that when he arrived by train in Hitler's
22headquarters he would not receive, he would not inform
23Hitler that he had arrived in some way?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I would imagine, no, because he had a lunch appointment
25with Hitler at 2.30, so Hitler must have known he was

.   P-184

 1 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is there an indication of what was discussed between
 2Himmler and Heydrich at 1.30 p.m.?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, it is on the right-hand column, is it not?
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is the first line translated: "Arrest Dr Jakelius"?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]      In the second line: "Alleged or apparent son Molotov"?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]      The third line: "Jew transport from Berlin"?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]      Full stop. Is that a full stop there?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, in the edition it is. Here it is too, yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is the next line: "No liquidation"?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is right, yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]      What interpretation do you put on the last two lines, Jew
15transports from Berlin and no liquidation?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That it was agreed between Heydrich and Himmler on the
17phone that the transport of Jews which had left on 27th
18November from Berlin to Riga should not be killed.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]      Had there been previous conversations between those two
20parties about such matters?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Not that I am aware of ----
22 Q. [Mr Irving]      Can you turn back from that book to ----
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      But it may be wrong.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]      --- to 17th November. It is on page 265.
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     

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