Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 21: Electronic Edition

Pages 171 - 175 of 201

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I have not seen you give credence to one single Holocaust
 2survivor in all your writings, Mr Irving. All you do is
 3pour scorn on them.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]      Can we proceed now to the transcript of the reception of
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Page number?
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]      We are skipping the two that we have already looked at.
 8This is January 21st 1939.
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      They are not numbered pages. Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]      This is a printed document, a record taken by Walter
11Haevel, who was a Foreign Ministry official. Is it right
12that Hitler begins by saying, "in January 1939 the Juden
13Viorden Biunst Vernichtert". What does he mean by that?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I have to read. This is in reported speech, is it not?
15 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes.
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is the subjunctive.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes.
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      He is saying the Jews ----
19 Q. [Mr Irving]      Would be ----
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I guess, are, I am trying to find what he would have said
21in the original.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sorry, I am slightly lost.
23 MR IRVING:     It is the very first sentence.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Chvalkovsky, who is he?
25 MR IRVING:     Czech foreign minister, my Lord.
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes. At that time there was still a Czecho and a Slovakio

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 1with a hyphen between them. Correct me if I am wrong.
 2I think he saying the Jews are being destroyed, literally
 3are being annihilated, in Germany effectively with us.
 4"On 9th November 1918, the Jews had not done the 9th
 5November 1918 for nothing, this day would be avenged but
 6in Czechoslovakia the Jews were still poisoning the people
 7today". That is the first sentence there.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]      I am sure his Lordship appreciates why, just look at that
 9very first sentence.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Do you want to go on, vernichtert?
11 Q. [Mr Irving]      I do not really want to look at the rest of the document.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us stick with the questioning at the
13moment. What is the question?
14 MR IRVING:     The first sentence is, Juden viorden biunst
15vernichtert, that is the Fuhrer speaking in the
16subjunctive, the Jews are being or were being destroyed,
17our Jews are being destroyed. He uses the word
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Annihilated.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]      What does he mean by that?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I think he probably -- what date is this? 21st January
221939. I think there he means economically.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]      Economically?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]      So the word vernichtert does not necessarily mean murdered
26or exterminated then? It can mean something else?

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No. You have to look at the context and the time. At
 2this time in the 1930s I do not think it means that
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     How does this go to show that Hitler was
 5pro-semitic, if I can use that term?
 6 MR IRVING:     My Lord, going through these 2,000 documents last
 7night I came across these and I thought it proper to put
 8them into this bundle and bring them to your Lordship's
 9attention in this manner.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      But he does say in the next sentence, which is really why
11I quoted him, Mr Irving, by way of explanation that Hitler
12blamed the Jews in his sort of paranoid ideology for the
13defeat of Germany and the revolution of 9th November 1918,
14and as he says here that this day would be avenged. So in
15the future he is saying it would be avenged. So it is not
16exactly a pro-semitic document, is it?
17 MR IRVING:     Now we turn the page perhaps.
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I am just wondering if ----
19 Q. [Mr Irving]      If you turn the page to page 2 of that document, the first
20paragraph, is it right to say that from this time onwards
21for two or three years Adolf Hitler was talking about a
22geographical solution, he wanted to deport them, out of
23sight out of mind?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, we have been through this ending up with the
25Madagascar solution, this is what he says here.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]      The first paragraph of this says, and I translate: "The

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 1Fuhrer points to the possibility that the States who are
 2interested in this should find or take some spot in the
 3world and put the Jews there, and that these Anglo-Saxon
 4humanitarian weeping people states should then say: Here
 5they are, either they are going to hunger or put your
 6final words into practice"?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No, not quite, Mr Irving. I think that is wrong. [German
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]      "You have to say to them", that is correct?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      So, it is to say to them, yes. So, States which are
11interested in getting rid of their Jews should pick out
12any tiny spot in the world, flecks, a spot of dust really,
13a tiny island, and saying: Here you are, either starve to
14death or put your many speeches in these Anglo-Saxon ----
15 Q. [Mr Irving]      So in his nasty Nazi way he is still talking about the
16geographical solution; there is no talk about liquidation
17here, is there?
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Not in 1939.
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      "Starve to death" does not seem to me a particularly nice
20thing to say.
21 MR IRVING:     Is this five or six days before Adolf Hitler made
22his famous speech in the Reichstag, on January 30th 1939,
23nine days?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      His prophecy, yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]      His famous prophecy saying that if they start a new world
26war ----

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is right.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]      --- it will end with their destruction, vernichtung?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      He already makes another prophecy we see in the first as
 4sentence of this extract: "On 9th November 1918 the Jews
 5had not done that in vein. This day would be avenged".
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes, but it is correct that Hitler uses the same kind of
 7terminology in that famous speech to which he then later
 8refers so often, is that correct?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is right, yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]      Can you turn the page now. We are now in August 1940,
11because not very much happens, does it? The emigration
12continues until the end of 1939, is that right?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is right, yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]      About how many Jews actually emigrate from Germany?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      About half the Jewish population.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]      Are you including Austria, two thirds altogether, about
17200,000 out of 300,000?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, it is about 200 to 250,000 is it not?
19 Q. [Mr Irving]      Did most of the emigration begin after the night of broken
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No. A lot did. It began in 1933 and it kind of went in
22waves. But there was certainly a major emigration after
23November 1938, because the situation had quite clearly
24changed so much for the worse.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]      These two notes now are dated August 3rd 1940. They are
26from my card index, but they refer to a meeting that he

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