Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 21: Electronic Edition

Pages 166 - 170 of 201

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     This is a very interesting example of how Hitler did
 1and 10th November and with the legal measures introduced
 2on the 12th.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]      Can we continue by looking at the document and say, does
 4it continue by saying that anybody who does take part in
 5individual actions against Jews or instigates them will
 6have to be in the future treated as a provocator, a rebel
 7and an enemy of the state?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is right.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]      "I please request you from now on ruthlessly to take
10action against any such operations or means to keep law
11and order and security and so on"?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes. It is a well known document.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]      It is a well known document, is it?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]      So I do not really need to waste the court's time with it?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No, absolutely.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do not assume that I have ever seen it
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      You made your point, Mr Irving.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]      I have made my point?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes. I accept that this is a document. You need not go
22on about it.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]      Can we turn to 5th February 1936: On account of the
24murder of the Swiss party chief or representative Wilhelm
25Gustlov, what happened to Gustlov? He was assassinated,
26was he not, by a deranged assassin? Is that correct?

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I think so, yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]      There were dangers of anti-Semitic outbursts in Germany,
 3and has Hitler ordered in this document there to be no
 4kind of excesses?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is right, yes. 1936 was a year in which the Nazis
 6were particularly concerned about their international
 7reputation because of the Olympic games coming up Berlin,
 8and the winter Olympics as well.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]      You mention the Olympic Games of course. Are you aware of
10the fact that Hitler specifically ordered that Jews and
11blacks were to be allowed to take part and they were not
12to be subjected to any kind of indignities?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes. I am not aware of Jewish athletes running for the
15 Q. [Mr Irving]      But it was not just the Germans taking part, were they?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No, that is right. As I said, he was concerned about the
17international reputation of Germany.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do you mean black people from African
20 MR IRVING:     I beg your pardon.
21 MR RAMPTON:     No, they would be people like Jesse Owens.
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Jesse Owens, my Lord, the black American runner, Hitler's
23demonstrably leftie.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The point you are making is that Hitler did
25not just make it an all white Olympics?
26 MR IRVING:     He ordered they were not to be subjected to any

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 1kind of indignities or any of the things that one might
 2have expected, and there is such a document in the file.
 3The last paragraph of that document is possibly worth
 4looking at. Does it say, "It remains reserved to the
 5Fuhrer now as ever, to decide what policy is going to be
 6adopted from case to case"?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Exactly the point, yes. No individual party comrade may
 8pursue a policy on his own initiative. That is exactly
 9the point. That is what this is all about.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]      The next document is 28th July 1937.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]      That Hitler as Fuhrer Reichschancellor has from time to
13time himself bent the rules a bit to allow people whose
14blood was not pure Aryan to remain within the party and
15remain in full office. As I say, these documents are
16sometimes of great magnitude and sometimes of minor
17importance, but they are documents and they all tend in
18the same direction. Is that roughly the burden of that?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes. It is all about Hitler's ability to sort of rule who
20is Aryan or not, really, or to make exceptions from the
21Aryan paragraphs of the party in the case of individual
22party members.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes.
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Whatever exactly that means.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]      Are you familiar with the case of Field Marshal Milsch?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]      Was he half Jewish?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I think that is right.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]      His father was Anton Milsch, who was a Jewish apothecary
 4and he rose to the rank of Field Marshal.
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes. The Nazis never really decided exactly what to do
 6with half Jews, or so-called Jews of mixed blood. It was
 7a constant problem for them, as you might expect in such
 8an absurd racist ideology, where you draw the line. It is
 9impossible to draw lines.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]      If you now turn the page, we now come to a page which does
11not really belong in this file but it is there. This is
12in fact the page of extracts copied from the original
13unpublished memoirs of von Below, is that right?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]      On which I based my own description, as opposed to the
161980 book. These are the 1947 handwritten memoirs of von
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well, I will accept that.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes. There is the reference there. I could not find it
20previously and there it is.
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Did you type this up yourself, Mr Irving?
23 MR IRVING:     Back in 1964, yes, my Lord.
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      You typed this up yourself?
25 MR IRVING:     I sat in his home in Dusseldorf and typed it up,

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      At least you have three dots there. I find this a very
 2dubious document.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]      You find it a dubious document?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes. I do not necessarily -- we have already been through
 5von Below, Mr Irving.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]      If you are going to say you find it a dubious document,
 7you ought to say why.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is a fair point.
 9 MR IRVING:     I beg your pardon?
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The point you have just made is a fair point.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is not the original document.
12 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]      You said it is a dubious document. Why?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Because it is not the original. It is Mr Irving's notes
14on it, I think, or Mr Irving's account of it, with gaps.
15That is the first thing. Secondly, of course, I do not
16believe von Below. He had very good reason to lie. We
17have been through that before.
18 MR IRVING:     There is quite a lot of people today whom you do
19not believe, are there not?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Not nearly as many people as you do not believe,
21Mr Irving. You said that you do not believe any of the
22survivors of the Holocaust, they are all suffering from
23mass delusion.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]      We do not believe the survivors of the Holocaust who made
25quite obvious mistakes, but there are tens of thousands of
26others whom we have not heard a word from.

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