Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 21: Electronic Edition

Pages 161 - 165 of 201

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     If you were going to quote a long example, would it not
 1fortunes ----
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      You quote them to me. I refer to it. I make it quite
 3clear that Goring says that he had rather that the
 4property had not been destroyed.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If we are really going to spend time on this,
 6Mr Irving, I think you ought to put what outrage it was
 7that Goring expressed.
 8 MR IRVING:     My Lord, this witness has claimed -- am I right,
 9witness, have you read the whole transcript of this
10meeting, such as it exists?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, this is the Nuremberg document.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is it right that the transcript is not complete, that it
13is like every ten pages missing?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      You will have to show me that, I am afraid.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]      It is a well-known fact about this transcript, is it not?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I will not accept your----
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, did you hear what I said? It was
18that, if you are suggesting that Goring expressed outrage,
19it would be -- I do not ask you to go to the document,
20just say what it was you say he said.
21 MR IRVING:     Your Lordship will remember that I three
22times asked the witness to answer a question, which is
23what is the reference to public enlightenment?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes. That is a reference to Goebbels.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, are you paying any attention to
26the question I just asked you? What was it that Goring

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 1said that you say was an expression of outrage on his
 3 MR IRVING:     I will be a bit more full in that question then.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is not full. It is a question of being
 5specific. If we are going to spend time on this. I think
 6this is a tiny point myself.
 7 MR IRVING:     It is, except the fact that he says that I have
 8commented that this diary entry was written with less than
 9total honesty. It was a diary entry suggesting glowing
10relations between these two Nazi gangsters.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have got the point, Mr Irving.
12 MR IRVING:     It is quite obvious from the transcript, which this
13expert witness has read, that exactly the opposite is true
14that in fact they were at each other's throats throughout
15the meeting.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Which is why I asked you, and this is the
17fourth time I have asked you, to put to the witness in
18general terms what it was that Goring said which you said
19amounts to outrage on his part.
20 MR IRVING:     Is it right that Goring expressed outrage at the
21fact that the Reichskristallnacht, for which he held
22Goebbels responsible, had inflicted colossal economic
23damage on the German economy by virtue of the insurance
24damages, the damage to the plate glass windows that had to
25be purchased now with hard currency from Belgium, the
26damage to the German international prestige and so on, and

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 1he made no secret of his dismay and he sneered at
 2Goebbels, what we need here is some public enlightenment,
 3which is a reference to Goebbels' full title as
 4Reichsminister of propaganda and public enlightenment, is
 5that correct?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is perfectly correct, Mr Irving. Let me point out who
 7had to pay for all this damage as a result of this
 8meeting. It was the victims themselves who had to pay.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]      That not the point of the question.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It was the Jews who had to pay.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]      The point of the question is that you said that----
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is exactly the proposal that was worked out by
13Goebbels and Hitler at the Ostrea restaurant, and whatever
14quibbling and cavilling and nasty remarks, sneers that
15Goring made against Goebbels, that is the outcome of the
16meeting. That to me is "splendid co-operation". I cite
17on page 290 a lengthy extract of the kind of disputes that
18they had. It is quite clear that they were not
19particularly fond of each other.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]      It is true, is it not, that you also suppressed the
21extracts which show anything but cordial relations between
22the two in that meeting?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Not at all.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You have asked that question very many
25times. I really think this is such a tiny point.
26 MR IRVING:     I have closed my file, my Lord, because we are now

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 1going to move on to the chain of evidence, which is a
 2useful way of spending the remaining hour of this
 3afternoon, I think.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What are we going to move on to?
 5 MR IRVING:     The chain of documents, the chain of evidence. It
 6is complete, apart from the Schlegelberger document, which
 7is bundle D. Witness, just so you know what the purpose
 8of the remaining cross-examination is about, as you are
 9aware and his Lordship is aware, I have maintained that
10there is a chain of documents of high integrity which
11indicate Adolf Hitler intervening, on a greater or smaller
12scale, on behalf of the Jews rather than against them.
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      "The best friend the Jews ever had in the Third Reich" is
14your phrase, I think.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Where shall I put this, just so that I know
16where its home is going to be? Miss Rogers always answers
17this question.
18 MS ROGERS:     The J files. There should be a J2. I am afraid
19I do not know which tab we are up to.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Probably 10, I think.
21 MR IRVING:     Now, Professor Evans, if you wish to challenge the
22provenance of any of these documents, please do not
23hesitate to say so and indicate if you think it is not a
24genuine document, or that it has in some way been tampered
25with or distorted or manipulated. Is the first document
26dated August 20th 1935? I am going to go through these as

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 1rapidly as I can, my Lord.
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]      If you just run your eye over it very rapidly, does this
 4indicate that Hitler has ordered that individual actions
 5against Jews are on no account to take place and will be
 6severely punished?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is right, yes. Individual actions or isolated
 8actions against Jews.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]      Committed by members of the Nazi party?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Or other organizations and so on, or anybody provokes them
11or whatever is going to be treated very severely, that is
12right. This is August 1935, that is right.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]      This is actually issued by the Reichsminister of the
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      This is a very interesting example of how Hitler did
16indeed sometimes step in to try and regain control over
17anti-Semitic actions when he thought that they were
18occurring in a way that was piecemeal and not actually
19steered from the centre. Of course, this is part of the
20lead up to the infamous Nuremberg laws a few weeks later,
21which then, in a very characteristic way of the way the
22Third Reich operated, introduced a legal means, an ordered
23means of disadvantaging and persecuting the Jews in place
24of these individual and rather violent actions. It is an
25exact parallel, well, not exact but a certain parallel
26there with the relationship between the pogrom of the 9th

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