Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 21: Electronic Edition

Pages 16 - 20 of 201

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     You will have to point out to me, Mr Irving, where I rely
 1on the testimony of Max Jutner, and so on.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think, if I may say so, that is an entirely
 3fair observation. I quite understand the criticism. You
 4are saying he has relied on convicted criminals for ----
 5 MR IRVING:     In preference to people who have not got a criminal
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- his contentions. But let us get to the
 8nitty-gritty of it. I think that is what the witness is
 9saying and I think it is a fair point, if I may say so,
10Mr Irving. Where does he rely on Wolff?
11 MR IRVING:     It is a comment on the quality of sources, my Lord,
12and the quality of sources is very important, particularly
13in a matter like this.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I quite agree, but this point only has any
15impact if you show me where he relies on Wolff or
16whoever ----
17 MR IRVING:     It is where I rely on rather than where he relies
18on, my Lord, which we are now going to come to. Would you
19look at the little bundle of documents which was handed to
20you this morning which begins with the word "Deckblatt",
21"Sammlung Irving Deckblatt", do you find that?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]      If you would just briefly scan it you, would you agree
24that this appears to be the covering sheet of a file of
25documents relating to one Wilhelm Bruckner?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is right.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]      Do you know who Wilhelm Bruckner was?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      He was the head of Hitler's, a sort of personal or
 3adjutantur in the 1930s.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]      He was dismissed in ----
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      '40.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]      --- humiliating circumstances in December 1940, is that
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes. He was also a senior officer of the SA, the brown
 9shirts, and he was an old Nazi -- he seems to have been
10already active before 1923.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes. So that he was Hitler's chief person adjutant at the
12material time, namely the Reichskristallnacht?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is right.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]      In November 1938?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]      From this covering sheet, it is evidence that I collected
17a number of papers and manuscripts and affidavits and
18letters from him?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is right.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]      In fact, this collection was obtained by me from his son,
21Manfred, in March 1971 and, as was my way, I denoted all
22these documents to the Institute of History in Munich?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]      Did you find this file of documents?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Now, what we found was a summary of a statement by,
26I mean, you are referring here to page 252 of my report,

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 1is that correct?
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]      I am asking you just about this one document in front of
 3you at present about the Irving collection?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well, yes, but Bruckner is dealt with on page 252 of my
 5report, and I think we should really look at that to get
 6the context.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]      No, I am asking you to answer my questions first please
 8which is ----
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I am trying to point out the context here.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]      --- have you bothered to find the Bruckner papers on which
11I relied in writing this passage?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well, now, we tried to chase up a reference of yours which
13was very difficult to find in the Institute for
14Contemporary History, and the only thing that we could
15find, because you did not point very carefully to it, was
16a summary statement of what Bruckner said.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]      So the answer to my question is, no, you did not find the
18file of Wilhelm Bruchner papers of which this was the
19covering sheet?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      This "Deckblatt" here.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes, but this covering sheet was actually brought to your
22attention, was it not? It was part of my discovery along
23with 500 other such covering sheets?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is just a covering sheet, Mr Irving.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes, but in the discovery there were 500 such covering
26sheets, there were 500 collections of documents that

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 1I gave to the Institute of History, and this was one of
 2them, and it was copied by the instructing solicitors so
 3you were aware that this file on Wilhelm Bruckner existed
 4in the Institute and yet you did not find it or use it?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well, what does it say? Let us have a look at the
 6description under No. 1: "Brief description" -- I am
 7translating here [German- documents not provided].
 8"Documents from the"...
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]      "Wilhelm Bruchner papers"?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      "Papers of Wilhelm Bruchner, herein [German] ----
11 Q. [Mr Irving]      In other words ----
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      "Declaration on oath 3749 on [German] SA on Adolf Hitler.
13Notice notes on the [German] Putsch 1934. General
14religious considerations and" ----
15 Q. [Mr Irving]      "Clemency" ----
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      --- "clemency" ----
17 Q. [Mr Irving]      --- "application"?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      --- "Application for clemency or pardon". So there is no
19indication here that there is anything in here that has
20anything to do with the Reichskristallnacht. That is why
21it does not appear.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]      So his manuscript on Adolf Hitler would not contain that
23matter than?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is not a manuscript from Adolf Hitler.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]      It is a manuscript on Adolf Hitler.
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is an essay on Adolf Hitler.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes. If I reference that in my source notes of several
 2books, then you would have normally gone to some trouble
 3to find that particular file, as you obviously had
 4privileged access to my papers which I no longer have, of
 5course, but you had access to these papers?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Not privileged, no. Could you point out to me where you
 7cite this document, please?
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]      It is referenced in several parts in the Goebbels'
 9biography, is it not?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Could you point out where you reference it, please?
11 Q. [Mr Irving]      We are back to delaying tactics again, are we?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No, I want to see where you reference it.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is not a delaying tactic. I think it is a
14fair point, Mr Irving. I mean, if you want to spend a lot
15of time on this particular document, which I am not
16finding very helpful, then I think that is a fair
17observation for the witness to make.
18 MR IRVING:     Can I draw your attention to page 252 of your
19expert report on line 5, which is line 3 of paragraph 3?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]      "The evidence offered by Irving for the encounter between
22Eberstein and Hitler" which you will agree is quite a
23crucial encounter, is it not?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      In your account, yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]      "The evidence offered by Irving for this is the testimony
26of Wilhelm Bruchner". My Lord, do you now understand why

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