Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 21: Electronic Edition

Pages 151 - 155 of 201

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     That is quoted in -- I cite that in my footnote. I try to
 1you can check it, Mr Irving, and raise objections if you
 2want to.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]      I go one stage better than you. I use the original
 4handwritten text because sometimes you can draw
 5conclusions from the way the handwriting is done. If
 6I tell that you the word "meine" is obviously inserted by
 7accident and that he then, as an after thought, had to
 8include "and our", "und unsere", because he could not very
 9well cross out "meine" because that would be a bit of a
10give away, would it not?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well, there are several things ----
12 Q. [Mr Irving]      I made that comment in my Goebbels biography.
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I do not want to give a long answer, but, first of all,
14I would have to see a copy of the manuscript to be able
15accept that it is as you say. Secondly, it does not make
16any difference to the statement that Hitler completely
17approves of Goebbels' policy.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]      But is it not a bit of a give away that Goebbels starts
19off writing, "He approves my policy" and then he realises
20he has given the game away, so he then adds "and our"
21because he knows that he is going to say in the diary that
22it is Hitler's policy, because he cannot cross out
23"meine". It is quite obvious if you look at the
24handwriting, the way it has been done. Did I not make
25that point in my Goebbels biography which you read?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      At the risk of repeating myself, I cannot accept that

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 1until I see the entry and, in any case, it does not seem
 2to me to make a great deal of difference to the statement
 3that Hitler completely totally approved of Goebbels'
 4policy or their policy, what is the huge difference there,
 5that he was sharply against the Jews, [German], in a good
 6mood.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]      Are you familiar with the fact that Dr Goebbels frequently
 8in his diaries stated that Hitler had reached decisions
 9when, in fact, Goebbels had reached the decision for him
10and he then wrote in his diary afterwards that he had the
11complete approval of Hitler for this, because these
12diaries were going to be published?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Give me an example, Mr Irving.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]      Page 136 of my biography of Dr Goebbels.
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      136?
16 Q. [Mr Irving]      From your knowledge of the period of 1932, was Adolf
17Hitler keen to stand in the Vice Presidential election?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well, this is a different matter altogether, Mr Irving.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]      We are still talking about the Goebbels diaries, are we
20not?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]      And it is the example you asked for.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Where are we?
24 Q. [Mr Irving]      Page 100 ----
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, I have 132.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]      136?

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      136. Paragraph 1? I mean the first big paragraph of two?
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes, it is the first full paragraph.
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]      "Hindenburg announced on February 15 that he intended to
 5stand again. Taking Hitler's decision for granted,
 6Goebbels began designing election posters. Hitler was
 7still undecided. Hitler then was announced as candidate
 8by Goebbels at a huge mass meeting without having been
 9consulted, found himself railroaded. Writing in his
10diaries Kaiserhof two years later Goebbels claimed that
11Hitler had phoned him after the meeting to express his
12delight that the announcement had gone down so well"?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Right.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is this not a typical example of Goebbels window dressing?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well, I am trying to find the footnote here. Right, well,
16I think it is two points, the first point I want to make,
17obviously. Kaiserhof, by that you mean the published
18version called "Von Kaiserhof [German]" of Goebbels diary,
19Goebbels published a substantial chunk of his diaries as a
20book in the 1930s, particularly concerned with the years
21in which the Nazis came to power. That, of course, is a
22very heavily edited and amended version of his private
23diaries. So that really does not tell us anything about
24the status of his private diaries in 1938. No doubt, had
25Goebbels actually published his private diaries in 1938
26during his own lifetime, he would have monkeyed about with

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 1them, just as he did those. So I do not think that tells
 2us very much.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]      Have you every compared Kaiserhof ----
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      You also quote in footnote 35: "According to Vossische
 5Zeitung, February 23rd, Goebbels said", and that is a kind
 6of "The Times" of Germany, it is a very respectable
 7quality paper, "said he was 'authorized' to tell them of
 8Hitler's decision to stand". And the source for the idea
 9that Goebbels is to be blamed for the fait accompli is
10cited here as the so-called "Opposition within the
11NSDAP". That seemed to me a really very thin tissue of
12evidence on which to base ----
13 Q. [Mr Irving]      Have you ever compared ----
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      --- this rather far reaching conclusion that Goebbels was
15constantly ascribing to Hitler decisions he had taken
16himself without Hitler actually knowing about them.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]      Have you ever compared the Kaiserhof edition, in other
18words, the published edition with the original handwritten
19edition as published now recently?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I have, yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]      Have you evidence for saying that they were monkeyed
22around with?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, yes, yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]      Apart from changing "Hitler" to "Fuhrer" and various
25obvious cosmetic changes? Can you give one example?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Large amounts were left out, of course, lots about

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 1Hitler's -- Goebbels' private life were left out.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is that monkeying around?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Of course it is, yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]      Would you now go, please, to page 284 ----
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Oh, back again.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]      --- where we come to a more obvious example of what I am
 7getting at? The first line of page 284 of your expert
 8report: "Other evidence supports the diary", you begin
 9this paragraph. "On the afternoon of 10th November, after
10he had reported to Hitler, Goebbels informed the Nazi
11Party chief of Munich-Upper Bavaria that the pogrom was to
12be terminated and added" -- so this is a message, right?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]      Of the Adjutant to the Gauleiter recording this?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is right, yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]      And he adds: "'The Fuhrer sanctions the measures taken so
17far and declares that he does not disapprove of them'"?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]      Now what do you infer from the way that has been put in
20that message?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Double negative?
22 Q. [Mr Irving]      Apart from the grammatical observation?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is pretty clear to me.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]      Do you infer that there is a belief in certain quarters
25that Goebbels is alibiing in here, that he is saying that
26he acted on Hitler's behalf? Why would this have been

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