Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 21: Electronic Edition

Pages 146 - 150 of 201

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     "He had also reported his views in an energetic matter
 1(sic) to the 'Fuhrer'" ----
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      "Manner".
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]      --- "and begged him to drop the matter" ----
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     ... "energetic manner to the 'Fuhrer'".
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]      ... "manner to the 'Fuhrer' and begged him to drop the
 6matter, but unfortunately completely in vain"?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]      What do you think he means by "dropping the matter"?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well, I put this passage here because of the sentence you
10left out, Mr Irving, the final sentence: "Hess pointed to
11against as the actual originator", and what you say in
12your book is that "Hess confirmed that in his view
13Goebbels alone was to blame" ----
14 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes, but ----
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      --- which is a blatant misrepresentation of that sentence.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]      Now will you answer my question?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is why it is there.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]      It will speed things up if you answer my question.
19Paragraph 2, you say: "Irving omits all mention of the
20crucial sentence which reports Hess as saying his attempt
21to get Hitler to stop the pogrom had been futile". Is
22that what Hess actually said, what the diary said, "Stop
23the pogrom" or to "drop the matter"?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Let us read it again: "He had left them in no doubt that
25he completely disapproved of the action against the Jews;
26he had also reported his energetic matter to the 'Fuhrer'

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 1and begged him to drop the matter, but unfortunately
 2completely in vain."
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]      [German], is that right?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, "the thing".
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]      The original German?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, "the thing".
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]      What do you think he meant by, dis aher, the matter, the
 8thing, the affair?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      The action against the Jews.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is it not possible that by this time, the end of December,
11he is referring to all the persecution measures that had
12been ordained by the Nazis, the billion Reichs mark fine
13and all the rest of it -- all these petty measures of
14persecution that had been adopted by the Nazis which were
15adding insult to injury, if I can put it like that?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I do not think so, no. It follows on naturally from the
17notion, what he says about the action against the Jews,
18which you have agreed was the pogrom of 9th/10th November,
19and you still have to explain why you do not quote this
21 Q. [Mr Irving]      That is it not quite obvious that Hess had gone to Hitler
22and upon learning that Hitler and Goring had decided to
23impose this swinging fine on the Jewish community and all
24the other measures, he had put Goring in charge of the
25evacuation or emigration programme, and all these other
26things that had been set in programme by then ----

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is bizarre, Mr Irving.
 2 MR IRVING:     I beg your pardon?
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is bizarre, is it not?
 4 MR IRVING:     It is not in the least bizarre, my Lord.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If you look at what goes before and what goes
 6after, plainly, surely, you must accept they are talking
 7about the event of Kristallnacht.
 8 MR IRVING:     No, my Lord, because you have to have a knowledge
 9of the Nazi Party hierarchy to know that Rudolf Hess's
10signature was under Adolf Hitler's signature on all the
11anti-Jewish measures that had then followed. Rudolf Hess
12had found himself counter signing all these orders,
13including the billion Reichs mark fine and all the
14punitive measures against the Jewish community, and he had
15obviously gone to Hitler and said, "For heaven's sake, why
16don't we drop it? We are just adding insult to injury".
17That is what this conversation is about, and it is
18perverse to translate "sacher" as "pogrom", is it not,
19which is what you have done?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is complete, complete -- well, two things. I do not
21translate it as "pogrom". I say "begged him to drop the
22matter". "Matter" is a reasonable translation for
23"sacher", I think, so I do not translate it as that.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]      I am sorry, in paragraph 2 you say: "Irving omits all
25mention of the crucial sentence which reports Hess as
26saying his attempt to get Hitler to stop the pogrom had

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 1been futile" ----
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, there has been a translation, Mr Irving. That is
 3what I am saying there. I am not translating there. It
 4is quite clear that the action against the Jews, as you
 5said yourself, referred to the events, the pogrom, the
 6destruction and murders of the night of 9th to the 10th.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]      And you do not see there is any possible alternative
 8interpretation in view of the fact that, as you and I
 9know, you being an expert on the Third Reich, Rudolf Hess,
10as Deputy Fuhrer, counter signed all the orders issued
11against the Jews over the next few days and he obviously
12found it repugnant to do so?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I do not see any evidence that he did.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr irving, my recommendation is that you move
15on because we can all read what is there.
16 MR RAMPTON:     We can also all read what is on page 281 of the
17Goebbels book which is all about Goebbels' blame for the
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, and he is hardly the originator of the
20criminal proceedings -- the Party court proceedings
21against the perpetrators.
22 MR IRVING:     The translation of "sacher" as "pogrom" which is
23what this witness has done ----
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, you have asked that question. The
25witness has quite rightly told you it is not a
26translation. He is giving the sense of it. It is not the

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 1same thing. Please move on, will you?
 2 MR IRVING:     Page 297. Let us see what kind of spin you can put
 3on this. Line 3 and a half, if I can put like that, at
 4page 297, in other words, the fourth line?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]      It is an entry in the Goebbels diary, is it not?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]      133, the entry for November 17th. It is in a book by
 9Dr Reuth?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Sorry, 133? Yes, that edition, yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]      Do you know where Dr Reuth got that entry from?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      He got it from you, Mr Irving.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes, I donated it to him.
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, I know that.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]      You will notice that the quotation is Goebbels diary.
16Hitler is described as being "in a good mood. Sharply
17against the Jews. Approves my and our policy totally"?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]      Have you seen the original German of that text?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I do quote it there. Do show it to me, Mr Irving. Can
21you refer it to me?
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do we need to go beyond the footnote?
23 MR IRVING:     No, my Lord, "Billigt ganz meine und unsere
24Politik", is that correct?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is quoted in -- I cite that in my footnote. I try to
26give the original German for all my translations so that

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