Irving v. Lipstadt
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 21: Electronic Edition
Pages 141 - 145 of 201
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1 MR IRVING: No, it is unimportant. No. Just a question on the
3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] "Hauen", I think, is it "Weiter Hauen"? That is from
5 Q. [Mr Irving] So on the balance of probabilities ----
6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] And then -- can I just say my -----
7 Q. [Mr Irving] --- if we now string together the sequence of events ----
8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Sorry, I have not been able to answer your ----
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, you are talking over Professor
10Evans time and again.
11 MR IRVING: My Lord, I began speaking before he interrupted.
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am trying to answer your question, Mr Irving. Now, my
13view of the sequence of events is that on the morning of
1410th November there is a conversation, looks like a phone
15conversation, between Hitler and Goebbels, where they
16discuss what to do and ----
17 MR IRVING: Why do you think it was in the morning?
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Will you stop interrupting, Mr Irving,
19please. Just let the witness complete an answer.
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] And they then decide, then Goebbels drafts the order.
21They meet in the Osteria restaurant, probably for lunch,
22and then after that the order is drafted and it is sent
23out in the afternoon. That is my reading of the sequence
25 MR IRVING: The timing is immaterial, is it not?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No. The time is not really immaterial. I mean, we know
1that the pogrom did not start until about 8 o'clock in the
2morning in Vienna, for example ----
3 Q. [Mr Irving] What we can say with certainty ----
4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] --- that orders were going out from Dalueges at 20 past 6
5to get the pogrom going so that it was still in full swing
6in the early hours of the morning.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I think I have the -- I am not
8interrupting; I am just simply telling you that I think
9I have the point on the timing of the events of 10th.
10 MR IRVING: The timing is not very important, I appreciate, my
11Lord, but now let me go on to ----
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, we have spent quite a long time on it.
13 MR IRVING: --- the motivation, that, in other words, at some
14time between midnight and the Osteria meeting, a phone
15call had occurred between Hitler and Goebbels, is that
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, I do not accept it is as broad a time frame as that.
18This is the ----
19 Q. [Mr Irving] I think his Lordship has said that the time is
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] --- what we are talking -- may I finish my answer,
22Mr Irving? What this is, this is the final order putting
23the stop to the pogrom and saying that, "Now there will be
24legal measures to kind of back it up". It is saying to
25everybody, "Stop", and this really is the order from
26Hitler and Goebbels, agreed between them, saying, "Don't
1not do anything more of any sort. The whole thing has got
3 Now, since orders were going out from Hess, for
4example, at 2.56 which made it quite clear at that time
5that the action should, the pogrom should continue, as we
6have already seen this morning, it is very unlikely that
7this order to stop it all was issued before 2.56. In
8addition, there are further orders that go out after 2.56.
9 MR IRVING: From where?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] From Daluege, for one, and that there is plenty of
11evidence that this -- many contemporary reports which
12indicate that the pogrom was continuing through the
13daylight hours of the morning of 10th. So I think the
14time frame for this order is some time in the afternoon of
15the 10th, and it looks like, because it refers to a
16previous broadcast which seems to have been made at
174 o'clock, that it is round about 4 o'clock or shortly
18after that. Certainly, the evidence seems to be that then
19although there were, sporadic actions did continue after
20that, that the main action then came to a stop.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right. Shall we move on to the next aspect?
22 MR IRVING: This is why you attach importance and not accepting
23the 10 a.m. timing, is that correct?
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, we are moving on now, Mr Irving.
25 MR IRVING: Well, my Lord, you interrupted the questions I was
26about to put to him and invited him to continue speaking.
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, if it is about the next topic, fine,
2but if it is not, I really think we have had enough on the
3sequence of events.
4 MR IRVING: So Hitler invited Goebbels to come to him bringing
5a prepared order stopping everything?
6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I have already said that it looks as if they decided there
7should be a prepared order in a phone conversation some
8time in the morning of 10th, that they met in the Osteria
9restaurant, Goebbels had a drafted order which they then
10agreed would be sent out.
11 I have to say, Mr Irving, one of the reasons why
12this is taking so long is that you are constantly asking
13the same questions again and again and again, and I have
14to give the same answers again and again.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: And I am asking you to move on. Please,
16Mr Irving, move on.
17 MR IRVING: I do not really wish to be lectured by the witness
18on how I conduct my cross-examination.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, take the lecture from me and please,
20please, move on.
21 MR IRVING: So what dispute do you have with -- and this is
22serious -- the way that I described this particular matter
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I know exactly what the dispute and the
25criticism is and I know what your answer to it is,
26Mr Irving, and I am now going to rule that you move to the
2 MR IRVING: Will you look at page 280? You accuse me of not
3quoting a passage from the diary of Ulrich von Hassell?
4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Sorry. Can I just clear my desk a bit?
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is the "My dear Popitz, do you want me to
6punish the Fuhrer"?
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, exactly.
8 MR IRVING: You state that in a conversation -- I will read the
9whole passage. I am sorry, I want you to look at page
10283. It is again the Hassell diary. This is the last
11change. Page 293 of the expert report, my Lord. It is
12the Hassell diary that you are referring to in paragraph
132, is it not?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving] It is again concerning the involvement of Hitler and
16Hassell -- this again is hearsay -- Hassell is reporting
17what he is being told by his friend, the Bruckmanns, is
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] About a visit from Rudolf Hess on December 23rd?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] Hess "had left them in no doubt that he had completely
23disapproved of the action against the Jews". He is
24referring to the Night of Broken Glass, is he?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]
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