Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 21: Electronic Edition

Pages 136 - 140 of 201

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, at 4 o'clock.
 2 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]      Oh, that is a reference to that.
 3 MR IRVING:     Can we now look it document?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      If it will assist, it is the news, the official German
 5news agency. It does not actually say that it is a
 7 MR IRVING:     Can I now ask you to look at the document ----
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can we go just quickly through it? Can you
 9give us the gist of it in a sentence?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes. Dr Goebbels, let it be known that the justifiable
11anger of the German people over the murder of vom Rath has
12been expressed in a previous -- in last night. In many
13places in the Reich there were acts of revenge against
14Jewish buildings and shops, but there is now the whole,
15the whole population is now strictly ordered not to
16attempt any further demonstrations and actions. The final
17answer to the assassination in Paris will be a legal one".
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Looking at page 277 of Mr Irving's book ----
19 MR IRVING:     It appears to be the same.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- it is plainly a reference to the same
21broadcast, well, the same communication, but it is
22differently timed which makes me ask you what exactly are
23we looking at? Document 23?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is that authoritative or not?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is an authoritative official circular, "Rundgruff" is a

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 1kind of circular call, really, of the official German news
 2agency in Berlin, at 4 o'clock on 10th November -- well,
 3the title, to be precise, says: "On the afternoon of 10th
 4November". Then the footnote in this edition of the
 5document says it is at 4 o'clock.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I am sorry, Mr Irving, but that may have
 7clarified that point.
 8 MR IRVING:     Well, it would have clarified it even better if the
 9witness had looked at the document at which you were
10looking at previously, the 10th November, in the little
11bundle I gave you. If you look at the big block of text
12at the bottom, the message from Dr Goebbels?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Wait a minute now. Sorry, I have too many bundles. Which
14collection is this?
15 Q. [Mr Irving]      The one after the Anordnumg again?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Is that this one?
17 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes.
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      With the green ----
19 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes.
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Page?
21 Q. [Mr Irving]      It is in chronological order. 10th November 1938. That
22is the one there. A big block of text?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]      Beginning at the bottom ----
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      "Strengvertraulich", yes?
26 Q. [Mr Irving]      [German - documents not provided] "I draw attention to my

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 1announcement made today concerning the ending of the
 2anti-Jewish demonstrations and actions" ----
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is right, yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]      --- which have already been announced via press and
 5radio", is that correct?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is right, yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]      That establishes that this came after the press and radio
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]      So you are prepared to accept, are you, that there had
11been an earlier radio broadcast?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]      By Dr Goebbels?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Quite obviously, yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]      And the fact that the information on that and the disks
16are referenced by the neo-Nazi extreme right winger
17anti-Semite, Ingrid Weckert, is neither here nor there.
18So you accept, therefore, you are wrong probably to
19challenge my time of 10 a.m.?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No, not at all. Where does it say on this document or any
21document that we have seen that it was at 10 a.m.? What
22is your evidence, Mr Irving, for the fact that this went
23out ----
24 Q. [Mr Irving]      If this source is right about everything else ----
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      May I just say what I want to say, please? What is your
26evidence, Mr Irving, for saying that this went out at 10

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 1a.m.? All you have is a reference to Ingrid Weckert.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]      Which is a source you are not prepared to accept, although
 3she is right on everything else?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I beg your pardon? I do not think she is at all.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]      As far as this particular matter is concerned?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Your reference to that is the broadcast as recounted by
 7Ingrid Weckert at 10 a.m. and I am saying that I have not
 8seen yet any evidence to suggest it was at 10 a.m.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can I just ask you this? The Rundgruff that
10goes out at, apparently, 4 o'clock makes an announcement
11in the name of Dr Goebbels?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]      Can you comment, as a matter of likelihood, as to whether
14if that goes out at 4 o'clock in the afternoon, and
15bearing in mind what is going on throughout Germany, it
16would have, in fact, followed an announcement made six
17hours earlier? That is not very well put, that question.
18Do you understand what I am getting at?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, I do. It seems somewhat unlikely. It is a long gap.
20 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]      Because, in effect, they would be sitting on their hands
21for six hours?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
24 MR IRVING:     Is it right that the passage I just drew your
25attention to makes reference to the announcements that
26have already been made through press and radio?

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, yes, we have said that.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]      And it does not say "just recently made through press and
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      "Already" it says.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is there any reason why they would have sat on their hands
 6all day until 4 p.m.
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I cannot think of one.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes, but you accept that the meeting between Dr Goebbels
 9and Hitler was some time in the morning?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No. It seems that they communicate -- that they had two
11communications, one of which, it seems, was probably by
12telephone at some time in the morning, and that is,
13according to the Goebbels diaries, where he says, you
14know, "What to do now, that is the question", and it
15clearly ----
16 Q. [Mr Irving]      So you now concede that they did telephone.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, I do not think I have ever said that they did not,
18not in the middle of the night, but in the morning. Here
19we are. Goebbels diary says: "Let the beatings continue
20or stop them. That is now the question." And then he has
21a ----
22 Q. [Mr Irving]      What is the German for "Let the beatings continue" since
23we are there? "Weiter Schlagen lossen"?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I would have to see the text, I am afraid. I can look it
25up, if you like?
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think it is really necessary.

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