Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 21: Electronic Edition

Pages 131 - 135 of 201

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     On page 282 of your report we now look at how that order
 1came around.
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]      You say that, when Hitler and Goebbels talked, it is
 4reported in the diary entry and no decision had yet been
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]      You say that, following this first conversation with
 8Hitler, on the morning of 10th November, Goebbels drafted
 9an order to bring the pogrom to a halt?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]      You quote his diary entry written on the following day
12referring to the morning of the 10th, "I prepared an order
13that put an end to the actions, I report to the Fuhrer at
14the Osterea".
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is it not extremely likely on the balance of probabilities
17that he prepared the order on the basis of his
18conversations with Hitler, whether in person or by
19telephone, and he then took the draft order round at
20Hitler's request to him at that restaurant?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is how I read it, yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]      So Hitler had ordered everything to stop?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is right.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     On the morning of the 10th?
25 MR IRVING:     On the morning of the 10th, yes, my Lord. Why did
26they take this decision to stop everything then? Had

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 1things got out of hand? Had the forest fire suddenly
 2developed on to a scale that they began to fear they could
 3not halt it?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Let us just get quite clear when the order went out.
 5 MR JUSTICE IRVING:     4.00 pm.
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It went out, in my view, in the afternoon of the 10th.
 7I think they decided that the action was complete. That
 8is to say that the synagogues had been burnt down, the
 9shops had been destroyed and wrecked, people were in the
10course of being arrested, and it was time to call it to an
12 MR IRVING:     My Lord, can I ask you where you get 4 pm from?
13I know it is there.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     At the foot of page 10 of this file it says
1510th November and then gives a reference for it.
16 MR IRVING:     I am looking for it in the expert report.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Does it matter where it is?
18 MR IRVING:     Well, yes, because there is a footnote.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is page 10, L2, tab 1.
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
21 MR IRVING:     Because I have said that that order was issued at
2210 a.m. that morning, my Lord, and I wanted to check the
23actual source.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Where do you get the 10 a.m. from?
25 MR IRVING:     That is why I wanted to check the actual source for
26it in the book, which is a radio monitoring report,

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 1I believe.
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Ah, but this order goes out after the radio broadcast.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]      Can you tell me what page?
 4 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. It is the bottom of 286, my Lord, top of
 5287, and the source is given. I think it is a deduction
 6because he uses the word "probably", does Professor Evans.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It looks to me that, if you go back to the
 8document I was inviting attention to, would S 117 an
 9meldung 114 be a reference to the timing?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, page 107, and note 144.
11 MR IRVING:     Is it not correct, as is evident from my book on
12page 277, that at 10 a.m. he broadcast a live appeal for
13order over the Deuchslandsender, which is the national
14broadcasting system?
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Before he met Hitler at the Osterea.
16 MR IRVING:     My Lord, yes, 10 a.m.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Note 53.
18 MR IRVING:     This is another of your unreliable sources?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Ingrid Weckert.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is it only Ingrid Weckert or is it tape recordings or
21recordings or disks?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      You seem to have derived the information from Ingrid
23Weckert not to have seen the recordings in the Frankfurt
24radio archives yourself.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes. In other words, I am referencing the recordings of
26the broadcast made at 10 A.m. which she has found and she

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 1has referred to, is that correct?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      First of all, I would have to see the document to accept
 3your account of what is in it or rather ----
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]      Do you always ask to see documents?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, of course I do, Mr Irving, because I do not trust
 6your account of what is in documents. Still less do
 7I trust the account ----
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]      Do you know your own name without being shown a document?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Still less do I trust the account that is given by Ingrid
10Weckert, whom I explain in my report as a notorious
12 Q. [Mr Irving]      Anti-Semite?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      In Germany, not a serious historian, who ----
14 Q. [Mr Irving]      Invented these recordings, has she? Is this what you are
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I am not saying she has invented the recordings. I am
17saying that I cannot trust her account of what is in
18them. In order to be able to assess the point that you
19are putting to me, I would need to see an accurate
20transcript of these recordings. You would ask no less if
21you were in the witness box yourself, Mr Irving.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]      If we are concerned only with the time the broadcast was
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We are not concerned only with the time. I
25am sorry, I am now interrupting you. We are concerned with
26the content because your point, as I understand it, is

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 1that in effect this order was in place from 10 a.m.
 2because it was broadcast. That is all very well if indeed
 3the broadcast did say effectively what the order says.
 4That is what the witness is wanting to be reassured about.
 5 MR IRVING:     My Lord, the content is referenced on page 277.
 6The broadcast, while it spoke of the "justifiable and
 7comprehensible public indignation of the murder, it
 8strictly forbade all further actions against the Jews and
 9it was repeated at hourly intervals and printed in next
10day's party newspapers", which is how we know the text.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     277 of what?
12 MR IRVING:     My Goebbels biography, I am sorry, my Lord.
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It would help if I could see the text.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]      Of the newspaper repetition of the broadcast?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No, does that ----
16 MR RAMPTON:     May I suggest item 23 on page 10? I do not know
17if this is right or not. This is sheer guesswork on my
18part. "Rundgruff" which I think is a broadcast.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, that might be right, yes.
20 MR IRVING:     Can I, in preference to the recommendation by
21Mr Rampton, ask you to look again at that document in my
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, I am going to ask the witness whether
24he thinks that 23A Mr Rampton just pointed out is, in
25fact, the broadcast. The only problem is it goes out in
26the afternoon.

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