Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 21: Electronic Edition

Pages 126 - 130 of 201

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     Yes, it is hearsay, it is reporting gossip. The fact that
 2 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]      If Hitler's adjutant Fritz Wiedemann -- who had been in
 3fact his adjutant in World War I too had he not?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]      Fritz Wiedemann writes that it is reliably reported, and
 6he writes this in his own handwriting and I am the first
 7historian to have found it and deciphered it and used it,
 8that Goebbels spent much of the night making these phone
 9calls to stop the worst of the atrocities, and there is no
10value at all to be attached to that, is that right?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is merely hearsay.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Professor Evans, does the fact of him making
13telephone calls trying to stop the rot, as it were, fit in
14with the general picture of the events of that night?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No.
16 MR IRVING:     Is that why you discount it?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is another reason.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]      So anything that does not fit in with your picture you
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is not my picture. It is the picture that emerges from
21the documents.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think we have dealt with that.
23 MR RAMPTON:     Can I go back two steps please? I am sorry about
24this. My interruptions do not help the speed of
25proceedings either, I know. I am perhaps not as quick on
26the ball as I should be, but I notice now that what this

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 1Hederich business arises from is it arises directly from
 2the text of Mr Irving's book Goebbels at page 274. I see
 3now why Professor Evans used the form of words that he did
 4about a speech by Hitler. Right at the bottom of the page
 5before the indented quotation Mr Irving writes this:
 6"Several people who heard Goebbels' firebrand speech were
 7uncomfortable. Karl Hederich, one of his department
 8heads, felt that it conflicted with the tenor of Hitler's
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. I think I have the point. That is
11based on nothing more than -- and I say this rather
12rudely to Mr Irving -- the reference to what Hederich had
13understood Hitler to have said.
14 MR RAMPTON:     The whole cross-examination was based upon the
15premise that it was Professor Evans who illegitimately
16turned that passage in the German into a speech by
17Hitler. It was not he at all.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I did realize it was really the other way
20 MR RAMPTON:     I am sorry, I had not. I was a bit slow.
21 MR IRVING:     You do accept, Professor Evans, do you not, that
22there is some evidence, no matter the fact that you
23discount it and I accept it, to the fact that there were
24phone calls made by Goebbels during the night?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Could you point me towards it, please?
26 MR IRVING:     That is Wiedemann.

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is hearsay.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]      Hearsay is acceptable in civil cases. Do you accept also
 3that there were phone calls from Hitler made to Goebbels
 4on the evidence of the eyewitnesses like von Below, the
 5Adjutants, that Hitler telephoned Goebbels to express his
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Could you point me towards the piece of evidence you are
 8referring to, please?
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]      This is not evidence. This is the von Below interview
10which was put to you this morning, the transcript.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Right. No, I do not because the von Below memoirs say
12that he was not in the room when Hitler made a phone call.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]      Are you saying that none of those three sources states
14that he was furious with Goebbels, he made a frightful
15scene with Goebbels?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No, I am not. I am saying the sources were unreliable.
17We have been over this, Mr Irving.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]      You will see the point of this in a minute. Then there
19was a conference between Hitler and Goebbels by phone
20about the situation. That is what von Below says. Is
21that not right? He saw this?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Where is this?
23 Q. [Mr Irving]      This is on page 4 of the bundle.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Assume it is there. I would have thought it
25was pretty obvious they would have spoken on the

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 2 MR IRVING:     There is a reason for this, my Lord. We now come
 3to the question of why Goebbels felt it necessary to draft
 4an order which he issued later on in the following
 5morning, or you say the afternoon, do you not?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      You are referring to the next day, as it were, now?
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]      That is right. We are now after midnight.
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well after. We are now into the daylight hours, as it
 9were, or perhaps that is dawn.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]      No, we are after midnight.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Exactly what time are we talking about, Mr Irving?
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Where is the document?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
14 MR IRVING:     First of all, I am saying, do you accept that there
15is one statement at least, namely by von Below, that
16Hitler telephoned Goebbels about the situation during the
17night hours? This on page 4 of the interview.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Assume that.
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
20 MR IRVING:     Yes. If therefore, and I now ask you to look at
21the little bundle of documents which has the anodnung in,
22if you still have it.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     L2, tab 1, page 10.
24 MR IRVING:     If therefore on the following day, 10th November,
25at some time Goebbels issues this order ----
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      This is 10th November.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]      It is the one immediately following the anodnung?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]      This is the actual order issued by Goebbels, is it issued
 4to all the Kreisleiters and all Kreispropagandaleiters,
 5which are the district propaganda officials?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is right, yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]      Does the document say, I refer to my announcement today
 8concerning ending the anti-Jewish demonstrations, and so
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      May I just go on, concerning the anti-Jewish
11demonstrations and actions which have already also been
12published in the press and by radio.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes.
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      And preceding that is the press notice which, according to
15the footnote here, was issued at 4 o'clock in the
17 Q. [Mr Irving]      We are going to deal with that time in a minute.
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]      Can you accept therefore that it is likely that a
20telephone conversation from Hitler to Goebbels was
21concerning the drafting of such a stop order, or stop
22orders, with the maximum possible dispatch?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      A telephone conversation, according to Goebbels' diary, on
24the morning of the 10th, before they met to finalise the
25order in the Osterea restaurant.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     

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