Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 21: Electronic Edition

Pages 121 - 125 of 201

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    I think he should be over and done with by
 2 MR RAMPTON:     I agree. I do not think he should take more than
 3a day myself, but there it is. It is not in my hands.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What I will not require of Mr Irving is that
 5he goes over the same points with Mr Longerich as he has
 6been through with Professor Evans.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     No. The second half of Longerich is almost
 8entirely swept aside by Professor Browning.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not saying you should not, but I am
10saying you do not need to.
11 MR IRVING:     Yes. We shall be using Dr Longerich's
12"Germanness", if I can put it like that, the way that we
13could not with Professor Browning.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Sure.
15 MR RAMPTON:     After that, I will see where Professor Funke can
16be fitted in either later next week or the beginning of
17the week after.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     One problem about sitting too long is that
19the transcriber who, if I may take the opportunity of
20saying so, has done an extremely good job, really cannot
21last, I suspect, for more than two and a half hours.
22Shall we press on.
23 MR IRVING:     I will try and phrase my questions on the remaining
24days in a way that they can only be answered with short
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do not feel you have to gallop but could you

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 1could bear in mind that the big picture matters.
 2 MR IRVING:     Professor Evans, on page 276 you refer to yet
 3another of my witness with whom you find disfavour,
 4Mr Hederich.
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]      You call his testimony highly unreliable on the basis that
 7no other witness claimed that Hitler made a speech before
 8Goebbels. I am referring to paragraph 5 on page 276.
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]      Can I draw your attention to the actual text of what he
11says in the footnote?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     "Was vorher Hitler selbst gesagt hatte..."
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is that any reference to Hitler making a speech?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It appears to be.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is it not just Hitler having said something? Is that the
18only reason why you discount this witness's testimony?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No, it is not. You will have to tell me what you use it
21 Q. [Mr Irving]      Turn it page 277, at the beginning of paragraph 6 you say:
22"So Hederich falsely claimed that Goebbels's speech
23contradicted a previous speech made by Hitler".
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]      When all that we are certain of is that Hederich just said
26that Goebbels' speech appear to fly in the face of

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 1something that Hitler had said previously.
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is not something he said. It is what the translation
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     "Was vorher Hitler selbst gesagt hatte..."?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes. As I say in my translation, he had held a speech and
 6I had the impression that it did not harmonise with what
 7Hitler himself had said before.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]      So there is no reference to a Hitler speech is there? Is
 9it not equally possible that Hitler arrived at this
10function of the old guard, the old gang, and had mingled a
11bit, gossiped with people like Hederich, possibly even the
12death of this diplomat had arisen and, when they heard the
13speech by Goebbels later, this man Hederich said, "that is
14funny, it does not sound like what Hitler said to me"?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is all speculation.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]      But you agree that there is no reference to a speech?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      He does not say Hitler's speech, no. He says Dr Goebbels
18held an address and I had the impression that it did not
19harmonize with what Hitler himself had said before. It
20seems to me to be a reference to a previous speech.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]      That is the only reason why you say Hederich is a suspect
22source because he refers to a speech which did not take
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No, it is not.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]      Can you give any other reason?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is really the use that you make of it. This is an

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 1interrogation of Hederich, who is an old Nazi. He is a
 2sort of censor.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]      Are we going to rule out everybody who is an old Nazi as a
 4possible source?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I think one has to regard postwar interrogations of these
 6people. This is an interrogation.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]      Was Rudolf Hess an old Nazi?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      This is an interrogation in Nuremberg on 16th April 1947,
 9and you yourself have cast serious doubts upon
10interrogations conducted at Nuremberg, but, presumably
11because this one you regard as being favourable to your
12point of view, you do not raise those doubts there.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]      The fact is that all----
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      This is another piece of postwar testimony.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]      The tissue of lies and distortion and manipulation, all
16the rest of it. We know the speech.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have the point on Hederich.
18 MR IRVING:     Thank you very much.
19 MR RAMPTON:     Before we go on to the next question, one reason
20why we do not proceed as quickly as one might like,
21I suspect, is that Mr Irving never lets Professor Evans
22finish an answer without interrupting.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us move on. That has happened
24occasionally, I agree. Let us move on.
25 MR RAMPTON:     It happened just now.
26 MR IRVING:     Without interrupting, can I have an answer, please,

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 1to the following question? We are now in paragraph 8 on
 2page 278.
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]      You dispute the allegation in my book, or the statement in
 5my book, that Goebbels spent much of the night making
 6telephone calls to try and undo the damage.
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]      Do I have no evidence for saying that?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No reliable evidence.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Put the evidence to him, Mr Irving, and then
11we will see what it amounts to.
12 MR IRVING:     Is the evidence given by Hitler's other adjutant'
13Fritz Wiedemann in writing in his own manuscript on board
14a ship in February 1939 as he sails to a new life in the
15United States not evidence?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well, I cite this, do I not, on page 278?
17 Q. [Mr Irving]      You discount it. You say, OK, Mr Irving had evidence but
18again this is another piece I am going to discount because
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I am afraid, I am sorry to interrupt you ----
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have read it. It is hearsay.
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, it is hearsay, it is reporting gossip. The fact that
23he is who he is is neither here nor there. It says it is
24reliably reported that Goebbels as well repeatedly
25telephoned from Munich during the night's worst outrages.
26It is hearsay. That is why I do not give much credence to

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