Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 21: Electronic Edition

Pages 116 - 120 of 201

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    Mr Rampton has very cleverly pre-empted what I was
 1become so prolix in his answers. I have repeatedly tried
 2to curtail the witness's answers, which have sometimes
 3rambled on and on.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do not let us seek to apportion blame. What
 5is the prognosis?
 6 MR IRVING:     The prognosis is that I was going to ask your
 7Lordship, particularly in view of what I would call it, a
 8threat uttered by Mr Rampton that he would take certain
 9other matters that are contained in the report as being
10agreed or accepted by me unless I did challenge them. In
11that case I really have to have the time to deal with them
12seriatim unless your Lordship rules otherwise.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I will tell you this straight, as it were.
14I have found extremely enlightening the cross-examination
15that has taken place over the latter part of yesterday
16afternoon and this morning. So I am not going to give you
17any encouragement to skip things. Professor Evans is a
18pretty key witness.
19 MR IRVING:     May I make a proposal then, my Lord?
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
21 MR IRVING:     Clearly, this is going to take more than another
22half a day this afternoon and another half day tomorrow to
23deal with the remaining matters. I am very cognisant of
24the fact that Professor Evans has his own academic
25commitments that he has to return to, but I do not know
26whether the procedure will permit him to return for the

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 1cross-examination to be continued.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think the answer is that, if he has to, he
 3has to. I would prefer that your cross-examination is
 4carried on and completed in one go, as it were.
 5 MR IRVING:     I have to say straight away that I would not be
 6physically capable of sitting on Friday, for two reasons.
 7Quite physically the burden on me is becoming very
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If you say that, I do not even need to ask
10you to say any more because I accept that. Indeed,
11I think everybody else finds it essential to have a day to
12catch up.
13 MR IRVING:     It is useless less if I do not come properly
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Shall we deal with it this way? Do you think
16you will be finished with your cross-examination by close
17of play tomorrow?
18 MR IRVING:     Of this witness?
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
20 MR IRVING:     The simple answer is no, not at the present rate.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, I would prefer it that we did take
22Friday as a non-court day and that we did, if Professor
23Evans can bear it, continue him and conclude him hopefully
24on Monday of next week unless that is going to throw
25Dr Longerich into confusion.
26 MR RAMPTON:     In fact both Dr Longerich and Professor Funke are

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 1here. I do not have instructions from them at the moment
 2about what their availability is for next week. I was
 3hoping we might actually finish the evidence next week or
 4early the week after. It does not look now as if we
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I was hoping it too.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     I was hoping so, but it does not look like it now
 8because I have three quarters of a day's cross-examination
 9of Mr Irving left, to be fitted in at some stage. I do
10not mind when. I will have to see if Professor Funke, for
11example, can come back at the beginning of the week after
12next if required, and I just do not know the answer to
13that at the moment.
14     What I would invite your Lordship to do is two
15things: Invite Mr Irving and indeed, if necessary, rule
16that he must confine himself to the questions which really
17matter. That is to say, for example, in relation to
18Reichskristallnacht, the original documents and the
19accusations which Professor Evans makes about Mr Irving's
20interpretation or use of those original documents.
21I would also invite your Lordship to ask Professor Evans
22just how problematical next week is, so far as he is
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The first of those suggestions is difficult,
25because we are now dealing with the meat of Professor
26Evans' report. There are various ways of

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 1cross-examining. Sometimes it is not a bad idea to pick a
 2little hole and use it to undermine the witness. I do not
 3think myself that that is the best way of cross-examining
 4this witness on this sort of material, but that is in the
 5end for Mr Irving.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     I will be blunt, if I may. I do think that the
 7first three quarters, 75 per cent, of this
 8cross-examination has been a complete waste of time, if
 9I may respectfully say so. I deeply mind about that.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am going to say this, because I think it is
11fair to say it in defence of Mr Irving. The first 150
12pages of that report are there.
13 MR RAMPTON:     Sure.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is not Mr Irving's fault that they are
15there, and I would have wished that they were not there.
16 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, all right.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I will say no more but I will now ask
18Professor Evans, what about Monday? Are your students all
19going to fail their exams?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Monday morning is all right, my Lord, but some of my
21students have an exam next week. I have five lectures to
22give. I have presumed an enormous amount on the goodwill
23of my colleagues for rescheduling lectures and classes.
24As you appreciate, Cambridge has rather a short term and
25we already halfway through it effectively. I put all my
26teaching into the last part of term.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So what about Monday afternoon? That is what
 2we are really talking about.
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Monday afternoon I would find very difficult. I have
 4commitments in the late afternoon.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     From your point of view, there is everything
 6to be said for getting shot of this altogether?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      My preference would be to sit on Friday but I quite
 8understand the reasons why we cannot.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is a strain being a witness day after day
10but it is also a very considerable strain cross-examining
11day after day, probably worse.
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Of course. I really would find it extremely difficult to
13appear here on Tuesday or indeed any day after next
14Tuesday for the following three weeks.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What I am going to suggest is, if you can
16possibly do so, would you mind trying to free Monday
17afternoon and we will try, even if we have to sit a bit
18late, to finish you altogether. I hope that is not
19unrealistic but it does mean we have to keep a foot on the
21 MR IRVING:     It does provide me with one extra day.
22 MR RAMPTON:     I can then tell your Lordship that, so far as Dr
23Longerich is concerned, the only day next week which is
24impossible is Thursday. So we could use that as the day

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