Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 21: Electronic Edition

Pages 111 - 115 of 201

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    May I just ask one question because I am
 1slightly puzzled. The very last sentence is in the
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Ah, yes. I think they are referring to Falshenk(?) which
 4is on the previous page, who had killed a Polish Jew.
 5 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]      I see.
 6 MR IRVING:     Can I now ask one question ----
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     May I just finish? I mean, do you read the
 8fact that he cannot be punished as connected with the
 9previous reference to what the Fuhrer wanted or the Fuhren
11 MR IRVING:     I think Fuhrer and Fuhren is the same.
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, I mean, it is a kind of, well -- sorry, I have to
13slightly revise my previous opinion. I have just looked
14at it. It says [German], so the heir(?), the singular,
15you are quite right in recognizing.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     He is a representative villain?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is then the individual perpetrator is what they are
18referring to when they say he cannot be punished.
19 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]      So it is a sort of collective singular, yes?
20 MR IRVING:     But the reference is to the perception of a Fuhrer
21order, rather than to the actual Fuhrer order. I am sure
22your Lordship will appreciate that the argument is if he
23thought he was acting on a Fuhrer order, then we should
24let him off the hook?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No, my Lord, that is not the case.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If it said that, I would agree with you, but

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 1it goes on say, not only did they think they were acting
 2on a Hitler order -- this is my perception of it at the
 3moment -- but that they were right in thinking they were
 4acting on a Hitler order.
 5 MR IRVING:     I think we will have a proper translation of that
 6final paragraph. We really need that. I will now ask one
 7question which should cut through the Gordian ----
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well, let me just make the point, my Lord. I think you
 9entirely right there. [German] is "the correctly
10recognized will of the leadership". It is completely --
11it is absolutely unambiguous.
12 MR IRVING:     Yes, but the first word, of course, in this case
13"dann" means "in that case", does it not, if the above is
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well, it is drawing a conclusion from the fact that there
16was no order from the leadership preventing the murders.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]      So now I will ask the question which will cut through the
18Gordian knot. The question is if there had been a Fuhrer
19order to the knowledge of the Supreme Part court, would
20they not here have said so in this document?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Preventing the murders? Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]      No, if there had not been a Fuhrer order on the basis of
23which all these murders were committed or these outrages
24were committed, would this Party court document not have
25made that completely clear?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It does. There was not a Party, a Fuhrer order and it

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 1does say that.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]      It says that there was not a Fuhrer order. Have
 3I understood you? You are frowning.
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, I think that is right -- I am just looking at the
 5text again. We have been through this. Yes, it describes
 6[German- documents not provided] So, you know, even so, I
 7do want to translate it all over again, Mr Irving. This
 8is really repeating what we have said already. It says:
 9"There was no order preventing -- there was no order
10issued preventing these killings" and, therefore, one has
11to conclude from that that the leadership wanted them,
12even if that is only kind of a vague wish. That is that
13it says.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]      Can I phrase the question slightly more to the point,
15therefore? It is my fault. If there had been in
16existence to the knowledge of the Supreme Party court a
17Fuhrer order at any time the previous evening directing
18that the outrages should take place, whatever the nature
19of those outrages was, would the Party court not have
20mentioned it in this judgment as being a mitigating
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That they were to take place or that they
23were not?
24 MR IRVING:     They were to take place. If there had been, in
25other words, a triggering order by Hitler which is ----
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But I do not think anyone has ever suggested

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 1there was a Hitler order that these outrages occurred.
 2 MR IRVING:     Or a clear expression of the Fuhrer's will.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Nor does this document suggest that there
 4was. It talks about the will of the leadership, and that
 5is, as I understand it, the way it is put. He did not
 6give an order for Kristallnacht to occur.
 7 MR IRVING:     I think this will be useful, my Lord -- this is one
 8of the documents which I provided as a translation to your
 9Lordship in toto, an official translation.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That would be very helpful because it is
11heavy weather going through German for me.
12 MR IRVING:     It is worse, my Lord. It is lawyers' German, and
13the fact that most of the concentration camp criminals
14were lawyers is a fact I have mentioned before. My Lord,
15would this be a suitable place to pause?
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think it probably is.
17 (Luncheon adjournment)
18(2.05 p.m.)
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, Mr Irving.
20 MR RAMPTON:     Can I mention something it has to do with the
21timing of evidence in this case. According to an
22indication given by Mr Irving earlier this week, I think
23either Monday or maybe yesterday but I think Monday, we
24expected that Professor Evans would be free to leave
25sometime tomorrow.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.

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 1 MR RAMPTON:     We were told a day and a half I think. It is
 2quite apparent that that is not now going to be the case,
 3or probably is not going to be the case. That involves
 4the following possible consequences. One that we have to
 5sit on Friday, and two, and this is more serious, that
 6beyond Monday lunch time Professor Evans' academic life is
 7going to be a wreck if he has stay on here. It has the
 8further knock on consequence that I have other
 9professional witnesses, Dr Longerich and Professor Funke
10who are also scheduled for particular dates to fit in with
11their academic obligations. I cannot really say any more
12than that but I am very concerned at the slow pace.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I slightly blame myself. I should have
14possibly taken a firmer line beyond giving repeated hints
15in the first two days of cross-examination, which I do
16still regard as having been rather, not beside the point,
17that is putting it too high. But rather peripheral.
18Shall I ask Mr Irving what his plan is?
19 MR RAMPTON:     If your Lordship would.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Then we can think ahead and work out what the
21timetable will be.
22 MR IRVING:     Mr Rampton has very cleverly pre-empted what I was
23about to say myself by way of submission. It is true that
24a few days ago I anticipated two and a half days would
25cover this, and I attach no blame to your Lordship, if
26I can put it like that, that this witness has sometimes

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