Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 21: Electronic Edition

Pages 101 - 105 of 201

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     All it says, Mr Irving, is that there should be no arson
 1with synagogues.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, my feeling is that we could
 3probably move on. I think we have really explored this
 5 MR IRVING:     Except, my Lord, that he said this was the middle
 6of the evening and, of course, that is not. It is the
 7middle of the night. It is 2.56 a.m. which fits ----
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Sorry, night, yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]      --- in precisely with the timetable that I have adumbrated
10from the very start of my writings on the
11Reichskristallnacht. That is why i attach such importance
12to it.
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is a completely phoney timetable, Mr Irving, based on
14the manipulation and falsification of the material that
15you have got before you and the acceptance of lies told by
16people involved after the war simply because they support
17your belief or your attempts to show that Hitler did not
18order all these goings on and was not cognizant of them
19and tried to stop them when he found out about them. It
20is a tissue of your lies on your part, Mr Irving, based on
21the shameless manipulation of documents like this whose
22meaning is absolutely obvious to anybody with even the
23most elementary knowledge of German.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]      Well, you accept that I do not have just an elementary
25knowledge of German, do you not?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Quite.

.   P-101

 1 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes, but you still feel entitled to trot out all those
 2adjectives again, the tissue of lies, the manipulations,
 3the distortions and so on, because that is the only kind
 4of language you can use to confront a document like this,
 5is that right?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I am not confronting a document like this. It is the use
 7you make of it that I am commenting on which I find quite
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]      Which do you find more extraordinary, the fact that no
10other historian has quoted that document or the fact that
11I do quote it?
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, do you remember a few moments ago
13I said that I thought we ----
14 MR IRVING:     You said we should move on, my Lord, yes, right.
15(To the witness): What is the evidence that we do have
16for the fact that Adolf Hitler initiated the pogrom
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      The Goebbels speech to the Party at the 10th -- at 10 p.m.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]      What transcript do we have of that speech, if any?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is in his -- well, that is -- there are two, I think
21two relevant documents there, in particular, one is, of
22course, Goebbels own diary, and the other is the Party
23tribunal investigation.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]      The Party tribunal, of course, only refers to the fact
25that Goebbels triggered the events ----
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well ----

.   P-102

 1 Q. [Mr Irving]      --- according to the ----
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      All right. Can we have a look at the Party tribunal
 3report then, please? It is very brief.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     Tab 2, my Lord.
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Tab 2 of this?
 6 MR RAMPTON:     Yes?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I seem to have a loose leafed folder here.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     Tab 2 of L2.
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Right. In the first very opening paragraph it says, if I
10may translate: "On the evening of 9th November 1938,
11Reichs Propaganda Minister Party Comrade, Dr Goebbels,
12informed the Party leaders gathered for a comradely
13evening in the Old Town Hall in Munich that there had been
14anti-Jewish demonstrations in the Gals, Hessner,
15Nanteburg, Anhaut, and thereby Jewish shops had been
16smashed up and synagogues had been set on fire.
17     The Fuhrer had" -- this is reported speech of
18what Goebbels was saying -- "the Fuhrer had decided on his
19report that such demonstrations, these kinds of
20demonstrations, should neither be prepared by the Party",
21I mean "should neither in future", as it were, "be
22prepared by the Party nor organized by it in so far as
23they emerged or arose spontaneously, but they were not to
24be opposed".
25 MR IRVING:     Now was Adolf Hitler present when Goebbels made
26these remarks, allegedly?

.   P-103

 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No, the Party court accepted that this was the case, of
 2course, that these remarks were accurate.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]      Accepted that what was the case?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That Hitler never intervened to say, as surely he would
 5have done, that he had not given this permission.
 6Goebbels had dinner with Hitler on the evening of the 9th
 7November, immediately before the speech, and what he said
 8in his speech was, essentially, what Hitler told him at
 9the dinner, as you agreed under cross-examination.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]      Would you answer my question? Was Hitler present when
11Goebbels made these alleged remarks to the Gauleiters?
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     He has answered that question.
13 MR IRVING:     In other words, he was not present?
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     He said no.
15 MR IRVING:     Yes. The only evidence we have, therefore, for
16there having been such a conversation between Hitler and
17Goebbels is Goebbels' reported speech, as reported four
18months later by the Supreme Party court, in other words,
19it is a third party source?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I think it is in his, well, this is an investigation of
21the events of that evening by a Party court ----
22 Q. [Mr Irving]      Does the report ----
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      --- under the chairmanship of a man who -- Buch, I think
24his name was.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]      Walter Buch?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Walter Buch who was rather hostile to Goebbels.

.   P-104

 1 Q. [Mr Irving]      I was about to come to that point. What was the
 2relationship between the Chairman of the Party court and
 3Dr Goebbels about whom he is writing?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is not very good.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]      Not very good at all, were they? In fact, if you read the
 6Goebbels diaries, there was most outspoken hostility
 7between them. They loathed each other. Is that correct?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is it correct towards the end of the same report it
10justifies the actions of a number of the criminals
11involved in the outrages on the basis that they believed
12that they were acting in accordance with the Fuhrer's
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is right. Let us have a look at that passage, can
16 Q. [Mr Irving]      Does that not imply that ----
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Can we have a look at that passage, please?
18 Q. [Mr Irving]      --- in fact they believed wrongly?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Where is it?
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think I would like to see the passage, if
21that is what you are saying, Mr Irving?
22 MR IRVING:     I am stating this from memory, my Lord. I do not
23have it in front of me, but I am familiar with the
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Can someone provide Mr Irving with the document, please?
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is it part of the same report?

.   P-105

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