Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 20: Electronic Edition

Pages 91 - 95 of 215

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    I am talking there in a general sense about the evidence
 1of all the crimes, for example the existence of gas
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     But this is important.
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It refers right back to the previous three sections of
 5this particular chapter in my report.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am trying to narrow down here -- this is quite
 7important. If his Lordship is led to believe by a
 8careless statement of the witnesses that there is a vast
 9body of wartime documents, this would be unfair, would it
10not, because you are not referring to wartime documents?
11You are referring to postwar documents?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am referring to all kinds of documents.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     You are not referring to wartime documents?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am referring to documents including wartime documents,
15the totality of the written evidence for the Holocaust
16which you deny.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you saying there is a vast quantity of wartime
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     What I am saying is that there is a vast quantity of
20documents and material for all aspects of the Holocaust.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I expect you would accept, Professor Evans,
22just to move on, the number of overtly incriminating
23documents, wartime documents, as regards gas chambers is
24actually pretty few and far between?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Gas chambers, other things such as the systematic nature
26of the extermination, I am referring to the whole package

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 1of evidence.
 2 MR IRVING:     But I am trying to divide that package.
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Wartime, postwar, shootings, gassings, systematic nature
 4and so on.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Professor Evans, you accept that we cannot do things that
 6way in this court. We have to divide things up into
 7parcels and look at the Eastern Front, look at the
 8systematic nature, and look at the gas chambers, and look
 9at the documentary basis for each. As his Lordship has
10said, you do accept that the documentary basis for the
11gassings, the gas chambers and for the systematic nature
12of that is thin compared with the documentation of the
13Eastern Front shootings?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, but what I am describing here is really -- I am
15moving on to the totality of all the different kinds of
16evidence. For example, I have dealt previously ----
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am anxious you do not move on from the questions I am
18actually asking.
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Have dealt previously in the report in an earlier section
20with your allegation that Holocaust survivors have made it
21all up, for example.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can we have a clear answer ----
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Stabbed their tattoos on their arms themselves and so on.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     -- so that we can move on. The documentation relating to
25the gas chambers and the systematic nature of gas chamber
26killings is sparse compared with the documentation of the

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 1killings on the Eastern Front, is that right?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. I think that is correct, that I am referring here to
 3the totality.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Paragraph 44 on the facing page. You object to my
 5suggestion that there was a well-financed campaign.
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I say it is a typical Holocaust denier's argument.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. If it is a true statement, is that an unjustified
 8statement therefore?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Let me quote the sentence. In the preface, this is a
10comment on a quote----
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do not start reading all this out.
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am sorry, Mr Irving, but I do want to get quite straight
13what I am actually saying. I do not want the court to
14rely simply on your gloss on it.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is the question I am asking which you have to answer,
16I am afraid.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I am going to answer it.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you agree that it is a well-financed campaign?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am trying to -- can I just say what I say in the report,
20because that will make it much simpler to answer. In the
21preface to the English edition of the Leuchter report you
22wrote: "Nobody likes to be swindled, still less where
23considerable sums of money are involved". You go on to
24say: "Millions of honest, intelligent people have been
25duped by the well financed and brilliantly successful post
26war publicity campaign which followed on from the original

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 1ingenuous plan of the British Psychological Warfare
 2Executive (PWE) in 1942 to spread to the world the
 3propaganda story that the Germans were using 'gas
 4chambers' to kill millions of Jews other 'undesirables'."
 5I go on to say then that this is the typical Holocaust
 6denier's argument that the "myth" of the Holocaust has
 7been kept going by a "well-financed" campaign in order to
 8legitimize the paying of German reparations to the State
 9of Israel. Quite clearly, I do not accept that everyone
10who has written about the gas chambers in Auschwitz and
11elsewhere, and the Holocaust, the extermination of the
12Jews, has been financed in order to legitimize the paying
13of German reparations to the State of Israel. I think
14that is an appalling slur on the large numbers of decent
15and serious scholars who have devoted a large amount of
16their lives to doing this. I think it is a disgraceful
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     I must insist that you answer my questions briefly because
19I ask the questions and then I am the one who gets into
20trouble when you answer at such length.
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, Mr Irving, but your question did not make it clear
22what I was saying in my report. I felt it necessary to
23say what I was saying.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you heard of the phrase "instrumentalization of the
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have certainly heard of that, yes.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you answer in two or three lines what you understand
 2by the phrase "instrumentalization of the Holocaust"?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is an accusation sometimes levelled at people who make
 4a reference to the Holocaust and are accused of doing so
 5for ulterior motives.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is this the allegation that somebody like Norman
 7Finkelstein makes?
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not really think that matters.
 9 MR IRVING:     Page 168, paragraph 50, line 3, those three dots,
10you agree, stand for 58 words, five commas, two full stops
11and a colon, is that right?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think we have already been through this. I do not think
13that is right, actually.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We are not going to count the full stops.
15Come on, Mr Irving. You have made your point about
16selective quotation.
17 MR IRVING:     Page 51: This goes to the anti-Semitism element,
18I suppose, does it not?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Paragraph 51.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. I have made a speech in 1992 and you take exception
21to my description of the Board of Deputies, and the words
22that I use. Is any criticism of an organization like that
23permissible, do you think?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do think it is rather over the top to describe the Board
25of Deputies of British Jews as cockroaches.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     

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