Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 20: Electronic Edition

Pages 86 - 90 of 215

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    You do not present, you present to me -- you present in
 1really see evidence there to justify those statements
 2which you make in a general sense.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     So you have complete confidence yourself, therefore, in
 4the methods used by the allies to obtain ----
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No. This witness has said many times you
 6have to look at all the circumstances and evaluate the
 7particular witness and his evidence.
 8 MR IRVING:     If you look at your footnote on that page, the
 9second footnote: "Irving in an interview in New Zealand,
10recording a conversation with SS Colonel Gohler" which
11I claimed to have had at the end of the war when I would
12have been a child?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I look up the transcript. You said: "I remember
14right at the end of the war I asked one of Himmler's
15staff", and so on and so forth, but it is not a very
16important point.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     So why did you put it in then?
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us move on we all. Agree it is not a
19very important point.
20 MR IRVING:     But you are implying there that I have lied again,
21are you not, in that footnote?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I am not, no. It is an amusing little mistake that
23you made.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     You agree that it is a misreading, therefore, of a
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Don't let us spend time on it, Mr Irving.

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I do not agree it is a misreading. I think it is just
 2a misformulation of yours, Mr Irving. It is not very
 3important at all.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     These verbatim transcripts can easily be misread?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I think I read it correctly. I am just saying it is a
 6slip of your tongue, that is all.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Or a slip of the punctuation of the person doing the ----
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, will you please move on?
 9 MR IRVING:     You are still critical, of course, of my methods of
10obtaining information from Hitler's private staff. Would
11you see, please, pages 83 to 5 of the little bundle? This
12is the complete passage from that interview you have just
13quoted, the one where I was allegedly conducting
14interviews as a six year old. Why did you not pay more
15attention to the surrounding three pages of that interview
16instead of this rather amusing little footnote you put in?
17Do I not describe in those three pages (and this is the
18question) how I have persuaded Hitler's private staff to
19reveal to me ugly secrets of their memories of their times
20with Hitler, if I can put it like that, and is that not
21more significant?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, that is not the context here of what I am talking
23about here at all, Mr Irving.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you referred to these three pages anywhere in your
25expert report?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     These are?

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     The reference to what Hitler's private secretary told me
 2about the Night of the Long Knives, for example? The
 3reference to what Johannes Gohler told me about Hitler's
 4order to Himmler to liquidate the inmates of Buchenwald?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The Night of the Long Knives is not a -- I think I do
 6mention the Night of the Long Knives briefly, but it is
 7not really a central point in my report.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think you made this point on Thursday to
 9this witness.
10 MR IRVING:     We did, my Lord, but I am just drawing attention to
11the fact that he uses the transcripts very selectively to
12imply that I am lying about the date I conducted an
13interview, but there are three pages ----
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am sorry, Mr Irving, I did not.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you please not interrupt?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I did not imply that you were lying. I am quite happy to
17accept it is a slip of the tongue.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     But he ignores the three pages ----
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is not an important point.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- which show me quite clearly using interviews in the
21manner that they should be conducted.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, you made a perfectly sensible
23point on Thursday, namely that you often do refer, so you
24say, to the unfavourable things that the Adjutants and
25their relations told you about Hitler. You have made that
26point. I have absorbed it and I have digested it. There

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 1is no point in going back over it all over again.
 2 MR IRVING:     My remark goes purely to the selective nature of
 3this expert witness's report and reporting on the basis of
 4the evidence before him.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Would you like to move on now?
 6 MR IRVING:     Page 162, when we are now dealing with Hans
 7Aumeier, you allege that: "It did not fit into my
 8preconceived notion" - this is three lines from the end
 9- "it did not fit into my preconceived notion that there
10were no gassings" ----
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it not, in fact, the case that Hans Aumeier's reports
13are not eagerly seized upon by the Holocaust historians
14because he, too, presents information which does not fit
15in with the standard version, like the gassings times?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think that, in fact, the Aumeier documents, which you
17discovered in the Public Record Office after their release
18in 1992, were not seen by anybody else. So I do not think
19there is any suppression there by other people.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but is it not the fact that the Aumeier documents do
21not fit in with preconceived notions in the way you
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We went through all this with Professor van
24Pelt, did we not?
25 MR IRVING:     On page 163, now, paragraph 41, you ask: "Who
26could possibly have gone to all the immense trouble

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 1necessary to fabricate such a vast quantity of documentary
 2material"? What documentary materials were you describing
 3there, just so we can be sure of what you are talking
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, a number of different things, the memoirs, for
 6example, of Holocaust survivors which exist in substantial
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     You are not talking about wartime documents then?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not say wartime documents. In addition, in the
10course of this trial, you have repeatedly alleged that
11wartime documents have been fabricated without really
12saying who would have done it or why, or what opportunity
13they might have had to do so.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     His Lordship knows this is not true. I cast suspicion
15only on one document.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am afraid I do not accept that, Mr Irving.
17 MR IRVING:     On the June 24, 1943 document, my Lord.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, you cast suspicion on a number of other
20 MR IRVING:     I am impugning the integrity of only one document
21then. Let me put it like that. I raise my eyebrows at
22certain others, but accept them just for the purposes of
23argument. In other words, you are not there talking about
24a vast quantity of wartime documents then. You are
25talking about a vast quantity of postwar ----
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     

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