Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 20: Electronic Edition

Pages 81 - 85 of 215

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    Do you have any evidence for the words "stylistic
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- pen. Well, this is -- yes, the report of the Dutch
 3Centre for War Documentation which is summarized in their
 4introduction to their Critical Edition which you dismiss
 5as being the product of financial manipulation by the Anne
 6Frank Foundation, whereas a few minutes ago, Mr Irving,
 7you just said that you had accepted that report ----
 8 MR IRVING:     I do totally.
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- in 1989 when it came out ----
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     And I did and I always have done.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- and here you are in 1993 saying that you do not accept
12it. I cannot accept what you are saying there.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, I think we have now had enough
14evidence on the Anne Frank diaries. I think we will move
15on to the next topic.
16 MR IRVING:     My Lord, he made now points.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, I have got to introduce some
18control. We have spent this morning so far dealing with
19pages, I think you started at 128, is that right, and we
20have now got to 156.
21 MR IRVING:     If this expert report was not so flawed ----
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So we have spent nearly two hours dealing
23with very subsidiary points. We still have not got on to
24the guts of this report.
25 MR IRVING:     If this expert report was not so flawed and bias,
26then I would not have been bogged down in the marshes,

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 1shall we say, before we came to the real materials.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have made my ruling. You are going to have
 3the opportunity to answer questions in cross-examination.
 4We are moving on to the this next topic, and I am afraid I
 5am going to have to be much more firm with you than I have
 6been up until now.
 7 MR IRVING:     If the witness could possibly answer more briefly,
 8then we would not spent so much time on these matters.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, that is not fair.
10 MR IRVING:     I advance with the utmost trepidation, my Lord,
11because I have no idea where ----
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, advance and then see whether the
13trepidation was justified.
14 MR IRVING:     One never knows whether the mines are dummies or
15not. Page 158, the end of paragraph 34, you complain that
16I state that the witness Hoss made statements which
17contain egregious anachronisms, inconsistencies and other
18generally implausible passages. Do you not accept that
19that is so then?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Let me -- where are we? Yes. Let me read the paragraph.
21We are talking about the memoirs of Rudolf Hoss, the
22Kommandant of Auschwitz, and the interrogations of Rudolf
23Hoss which were made in Polish captivity. In your book on
24Nuremberg you allege, I say, that Hoss was "manhandled" by
25those who arrested him and kept without sleep until he
26confessed. You term this "torture". You say: "Hoss's

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 1confessions contain many deliberate errors to make it
 2clear they were untrue. His memory is patchy about days
 3and places, and about the events of four or five years
 4earlier. There were many inconsistencies in his account.
 5He signed a confession in English although he had no
 6reading knowledge of English. He frequently changed his
 7testimony about numbers. Hoss wrote his memoirs in Polish
 8captivity 'as a means of postponing his fate'. His
 9statements, Irving charges, contained 'egregious
10anachronisms, inconsistencies and other generally
11implausible passages".
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you now answer the question?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     So I am trying to summarize your views there.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you dispute the fact that his statements contain these
15inaccuracies and implausible statements?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not think there is -- well, first of all, I do not
17think there is any evidence that there are deliberate
18errors to make it clear that what he said was untrue.
19     Secondly, I think one has to distinguish between
20the interrogations and the memoirs. Hoss says in his
21memoirs that he was manhandled and very badly treated.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Where did he write the memoirs?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     He writes his memoirs in Polish captivity, and the
24confessions, well, the first of his confessions which,
25admissions, statements, which resulted from interrogations
26was, therefore, discounted. What I am referring to here

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 1are the memoirs.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     I only have two questions to ask. Would a confession or a
 3statement obtained by these means ever be accepted by a
 4British court of law?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have already said, this is only one statement, the first
 6statement. The memoirs that he wrote were certainly not
 7obtained under duress. They were written in captivity
 8under the imminent prospect of death and, to my mind, that
 9makes them more likely to be honest.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you answer the question? Would it be acceptable in
11a British court of law, this kind of statement?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am trying to explain the context. The statement which
13he made under duress, the first of his statements, was not
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     If he was such a reliable witness and so convincing, why
16was he not called by the prosecution at Nuremberg when he
17was actually in the building in a cell?
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is a question to which this witness
19cannot possibly know the answer.
20 MR IRVING:     On page 160 at line 4 of paragraph 36: "Irving
21casts doubt on almost all testimony at the Nuremberg War"
22-- is that an exaggeration, that I doubt almost all the
23testimony produced at Nuremberg?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is not what I say.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, you say that I say it does not fit my arguments;
26I say it was obtained by torture and threats?

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, no, I do not, Mr Irving. I say: "Irving casts doubt
 2on almost all testimony at the Nuremberg War Crimes Trials
 3or during the prior interrogations if it does not fit his
 4arguments, alleging it was obtained by torture and
 5threats". Those are my precise words.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     In other words, that I deliberately manipulate, I accept
 7the evidence that I like and all the other evidence
 8I disregard on this rather threadbare pretext of tortures
 9and threats?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     In your book on Nuremberg you refer constantly to -- and
11again, my Lord, this is in my written response No. 10 on
12page 6 of my reply to the second set of written questions
13by Mr Irving, where you talk about "the unsavoury methods
14of the OSS, intimidatory American tactics appear to have
15been routine, harassment of the prisoners, a paralysing
16regime of psychoterror enforced on the defendants", and so
17on. That seems to me to be general attempts to discredit
18the testimony at the Nuremberg War Crimes trials.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Having you investigated the methods used by the Allies and
20the interrogators at Nuremberg? Are you able to state
21with confidence to this court that I am wrong?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You do not present, you present to me -- you present in
23your book some isolated incidents of maltreatment of
24prisoners of Streichier(?), I think, and, of course, in
25the initial interrogation of Hoss, but you do not present
26evidence in your book that this was general. I do not

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