Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 20: Electronic Edition

Pages 76 - 80 of 215

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    I do not want, but I wish to make some comments on
 1I would be very hesitant about allowing this kind of
 2material which may be prejudicial to be put in in this
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, you say that, but if I read to you
 5one of the extracts ----
 6 MR IRVING:     Yes, please do.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- it is in these terms: "To me, the Anne
 8Frank's diaries are a romantic novel, rather like 'Gone
 9With the Wind' and I would not read something like that".
10 MR IRVING:     As a source, yes.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     How can the context really affect what you
12are saying which is that it is all made up?
13 MR IRVING:     I am not saying that at all, my Lord.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Oh, I thought you were saying...
15 MR IRVING:     That is certainly not the point of what I am
16making. The Anne Frank diary, I am sure that your
17Lordship, like myself, has never had the pleasure of
18reading that particular work, but I have read a great deal
19about it, including the official Dutch investigation into
20it. I had lots of newspaper articles about it and I am
21quite familiar with its genesis; the way it started off
22first as a fragmentary diary, it was then rewritten by her
23in captivity because she had nothing else to do and then,
24as she grew up, she then rewrote it as a novel.
25     That is what I am saying there, but to take just
26that one sentence and to hang on that the imputation that

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 1I am saying the whole thing is a pack of lies, which your
 2Lordship just put on it, I think is a very adventurous
 3forward step.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, do we have the ----
 5 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, I really do think this is becoming the
 6most frightful waste of time.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, at least it is relevant.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     I know.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We have spent two days on the wholly
10peripheral matters.
11 MR RAMPTON:     I have been as patient as I possibly can be, but
12now I really cannot sit here any longer because I have in
13my hand a piece of paper taken from Mr Irving's website,
14or through his website, on 7th February of this month of
15an interview that he gave to something called CNN, which
16is a satellite news station, and he was interviewed on
1716th January.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I have that. I have read that.
19 MR RAMPTON:     This year.
20 MR IRVING:     Here we go again. It is another very heavily
21cross-cut and edited broadcast.
22 MR RAMPTON:     Well, I just read these four lines: "Interviewer
23to Irving: Did you say that the Anne Frank diary was a
24forgery? Irving: Guilty. Interviewer: Is it a
25forgery? Irving: No".
26 MR IRVING:     Absolutely right. Absolutely right. Before 1979

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 1I was of the opinion that it was a highly suspect document
 2for precisely the reasons I have set out, namely the
 3father said the handwriting was the same the whole way
 4through. He produced expert evidence in court to that
 5effect in order to win a libel action. The handwriting
 6was partly in ball point ink. So the conclusions there
 7are absolutely plain.
 8     After 1980 we had the German Government
 9investigation which confirmed that the ball point ink was
10there and it was not until the Dutch carried out their
11authoritative tests that I was perfectly satisfied I had
12been wrong with that belief. I have made not the
13slightest hesitation in admitting that I was wrong, which
14is absolutely the right way to handle the matter.
15     But to take things out of chronology, which is
16what this witness has been doing, and to imply that by
17calling it a novel I am suggesting that the diary is in
18some way a pack of lies, is I think very unjust and not
19borne out by the evidence when it is presented in the
20proper sequence. But I repeat what I said about the
21prejudicial nature of producing fragments of very heavily
22edited sound bites from American or German or Danish
23television programmes. Your Lordship is familiar with how
24these programmes are concocted. The scissors play an
25important part.
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     My Lord, may I make three points?

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The first is when you describe something, when one
 3describes something, as a novel, one surely implies that
 4it is fictional, it is not telling the truth. I do think
 5that is a significant use of words.
 6     Secondly, in my report on page 156 I quote an
 7interview in 1993: "Interviewer: Are you aware that the
 8Dutch Centre for War Documentation has made a full report
 9about this?" that is to say the allegations of
10falsification and so on in the diaries. "Irving: Doesn't
11surprise me. Interviewer: And they say it's - they have
12made public all the diaries, and they examined the
13handwriting, and all there is to know about it. Irving:
14Doesn't surprise me. A lot of money is at stake. The
15Anne Frank Foundation is a very wealthy political
16organization in Amsterdam. Interview: We're talking
17about the Dutch State War Documentation Centre here.
18We're not talking about the Anne Frank Foundation. We're
19talking about a public institution. Irving: But I'm
20talking about the financial interests which are at stake
22     I think, Mr Irving, the clear implication of
23that is that the full report of the Dutch Centre for War
24Documentation is a falsification and is not reliable in
25any sense.
26     The third point I want to make ----

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 1 MR IRVING:     Why have you not ----
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, there are three points.
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     And If I can make my third point, is that again in 1993,
 4his Lordship has already quoted part of this interview
 5that you gave, saying that you would not read it, you read
 6certain passages and so on. "We have samples of Anne
 7Frank's real handwriting in postcards which she wrote to
 8friends in 1940 and 1939. They were recently auctioned in
 9an auction house in the United States about two years
10ago. That handwriting is totally different from the
11handwriting in the diaries. They are as different as
12chalk and cheese and the extraordinary finding is that
13some of the pages of the diaries have been written in ball
14point pen which is a pen that didn't exist in Anne Frank's
15lifetime". 1993, Mr Irving.
16 MR IRVING:     Yes, and, quite clearly, the parts that are written
17in ball point ink in the diaries cannot have been written
18by the girl who wrote the postcards, am I right?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You are saying some of the pages -- that simply is not the
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     But some of the pages were written in ball point pen, is
22that correct?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No. As I understand it, there were stylistic
24emendations. There are not whole pages written in ball
25point ----
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     

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