Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 20: Electronic Edition

Pages 61 - 65 of 215

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    I am not only going to ask one more question. In view of
 1Hungarian Jews had passed into the camp in 1944, when in
 2fact that was the entire number of Hungarian Jews who
 3existed, was she liable to have been testifying to
 4something from her actual knowledge?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Let me say the point at issue in this paragraph of my
 6report, I should make clear, is that you rely, and I think
 7the court has been through this already ----
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, we have.
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     On the notes of Judge Biddle.
10 MR IRVING:     On the use I made of Judge Biddle's notes?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     -- which you misinterpret in order to discredit this
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it likely that Judge Biddle, being no fool, would also
14have seen through her on the basis of the
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, we are not going to go through
17that again.
18 MR IRVING:     Right. At page 155 we come to the Anne Frank
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was the Anne Frank diary a diary or a novel or both?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It was a diary.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     It was a diary. Was it one diary or was it several
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That depends what you mean.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     In other words, did she write it and then did she rewrite

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 1it and then did she rewrite it?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     As I understand it, it is a diary that is written through.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you accept that she wrote it, and then she rewrote
 4it, and then she rewrote it as a novel shortly before she
 5was kidnapped by the Nazis?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     What is your criticism of my -- in fact, I am sorry, page
 8156, line 2 of paragraph 31. You object to my calling the
 9diary a novel, do you not?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yet, if the final version of the diary, as has been
12determined by the experts in Holland, is described as a
13novel, then that description by me is not unjustified?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You would have to show me the document of the experts in
15Holland which describe it as a novel.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     You object to the fact that I suggest that whole pages are
17written in ball point pen?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, if you are relying, just let me
20say what I am going to say, on what you describe as the
21determination by experts in Holland that it is a novel, at
22some stage that will be something you ought really to put
23to Professor Evans. I cannot find it but I think he deals
24with Anne Frank and her diary as a substantive criticism.
25Am I wrong about that?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Pages 156 to 7.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I thought you came back to it. Perhaps not?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No.
 3 MR IRVING:     My Lord, clearly, the reason I am asking these
 4questions is that I understand that I am going to be
 5cross-examined on this.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Now is your chance. I suspect -- Mr Rampton
 7will tell me if I am wrong -- that Professor Evans may be
 8the right person for you to target your cross-examination
 9on the Anne Frank diary.
10 MR IRVING:     That is precisely what I was waiting for. Every
11new subject I adumbrate I am frightened of being stopped.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am trying to stop you when you are on
13irrelevances. It seems to me Ann Frank is perhaps
14relevant and therefore do not take that aspect too
16 MR RAMPTON:     It is. The allegation is made against Mr Irving
17that without any foundation whatsoever he has alleged that
18the Anne Frank diaries were a fake, or are a fake. What
19is more, he has since admitted that he was wrong about
21 MR IRVING:     Well, can we elucidate this matter in my
22cross-examination rather than your statements from the
24 MR RAMPTON:     Certainly.
25 MR IRVING:     Witness, will you go to the bundle of documents
26bundle F, and look at one item there, which is page 86?

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Professor Evans, are you aware of the fact that the father
 3of Ann Frank fought a number of libel actions against
 4people who maintained that the diary was suspect?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I think he did.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     I think three or four libel actions. Are you familiar
 7from the discovery with the fact that I corresponded with
 8the father of Anne Frank on a number of occasions?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     He never of course sued me for libel, did he? Is that
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is neither here nor there.
13 MR IRVING:     My Lord, in the allegations is the fact that we
14paid damages, or I paid damages to the father.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That may be relevant.
16 MR IRVING:     That is why I was trying to get this admission from
17the witness that the father never sued me for libel.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is the other way round that may be
19relevant. If you paid damages because you had alleged
20that the diary was a fake, that, I would have thought,
21might be relevant.
22 MR IRVING:     If your Lordship had waited, there would have been
23two questions, with a follow up, but we have not had an to
24the first one yet.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Ask the question again.
26 MR IRVING:     Witness, are you aware of any libel action brought

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 1by the father against me?
 2 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, I do not know----
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I cannot understand what the relevance of
 4that is.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     I do not make an allegation that the father sued
 6Mr Irving for saying that the diaries were a fake. Maybe
 7he could have done but, as far as I know, he did not and
 8I have never said that he did.
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am trying to find the passage in my report which you are
10referring to here.
11 MR IRVING:     Can we have an answer to the question?
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, because the question, I have ruled, is
13irrelevant, Mr Irving. Can you please pay some attention
14to what view I rightly or wrongly am taking about some of
15your questions. Sorry, Professor Evans, you were about to
16say something?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, press on. You were asking the
19witness about page 86.
20 MR IRVING:     Are you aware that, in the course of these libel
21actions, a German court ordered the father of Anne Frank
22to subject the diaries to chemical and forensic tests?
23Can I have an answer, Professor?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     If you are telling me that, I will accept that that is the
25case, yes. They certainly were subjected to tests.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     

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